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StillKirok

General Star Wars Discussion

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Yoda could've lifted Jabba and slammed his two-ton a$$ against a wall if he wanted to.  Yoda hoisted a sunken x-wing fighter out of a swamp; lifting a giant slug would be considerably easier....

That's a different Jedi power.  Luke clearly could have done similar. 

No, but some dead women could have their still living babies cut out of them.  Not common, but it does happen.   But this is another example of the prequels f--king up the OT; in ROTJ, Leia says she vaguely remembers 'her real mother' (one assumes that's Padme).   Now, she died during Luke and Leia's birth.   WTF?!

Screw the prequels.   Like Tasha and Data's tryst, they never happened...

The only answer to that is no one bothered to tell Leia she was adopted, and for all she knew, that woman WAS her mom.

 

Ah, again; screw the prequels with their rat-tailed Jedi  and midichlorians. 
It was heavily implied in ROTJ that building one's own lightsaber was a final test: Darth Vader says to Luke, "I see you have constructed your own lightsaber... your skills are now complete."  Complete.   Implying that building a saber was the final rite of passage.  

And we never actually see any of the padawans in the prequels building their own lightsabers... maybe they're hand-me-downs, or 'training sabers' till they make their own?  It also parallels better with Luke's journey; Luke used his father's sword till he lost it (and a hand), completed his training on Tatooine, and then made his own. 

 

There's a lot in the prequels we don't see and a lot about the Jedi that we don't know.  The cartoons, unlike the prequels, are actually pretty good, especially when dealing with the Jedi. 

It's been awhile since I saw that cartoon episode, but I remember there's a special place where there is a certain crystal that goes in the lightsaber that is very important.  Building the lightsaber is indeed a right of passage, but one that comes earlier in the training.  It does make sense that Luke would be building his because after all, he started very late.

 

which was precisely why Jabba ordered Luke and Han to be executed immediately after Luke killed the Rancor monster.  

Clearly Jabba never saw an episode of Batman, because he made the ultimate mistake.  Why wait and send him into the pit, when he could have just taken a gun and shot them?

 

Likewise, why didn't the rebels just carpet bomb Jabba when he said no?  Han was frozen--a full scale assault wouldn't have harmed him.  Maybe go in, throw a grenade or two, perhaps a gas bomb, and boom, take Han.

 

 

Edited by StillKirok

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Clearly Jabba never saw an episode of Batman, because he made the ultimate mistake.  Why wait and send him into the pit, when he could have just taken a gun and shot them?

This.

 

Likewise, why didn't the rebels just carpet bomb Jabba when he said no?  Han was frozen--a full scale assault wouldn't have harmed him.  Maybe go in, throw a grenade or two, perhaps a gas bomb, and boom, take Han.

Not this.

Carpet bombing is bombing the living tar out of something with no concern for collateral damage. The point is to completely level an area. I fail to see how that doesn't kill Han.

And assaults run risks. The results are unpredictable. I don't know how you can say that Han absolutely would have been fine. 

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Star Wars has very precision type weaponry.  Maybe a carpet bombing situation is overkill, but bombs like those used to knock out the shield at the end of the movie, which are small, grenade like structures, could have done the job, as could bombs that emit gases, which one would have to assume exists.  They also have stun level tech, so they could in theory, put that tech in bombs, and knock everyone out. 

Loss of life would be minimal.  As it turned out, they caused a LOT of carnage getting Han out. 

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Clearly Jabba never saw an episode of Batman, because he made the ultimate mistake.  Why wait and send him into the pit, when he could have just taken a gun and shot them?

This.

 

Likewise, why didn't the rebels just carpet bomb Jabba when he said no?  Han was frozen--a full scale assault wouldn't have harmed him.  Maybe go in, throw a grenade or two, perhaps a gas bomb, and boom, take Han.

Not this.

Carpet bombing is bombing the living tar out of something with no concern for collateral damage. The point is to completely level an area. I fail to see how that doesn't kill Han.

And assaults run risks. The results are unpredictable. I don't know how you can say that Han absolutely would have been fine. 

^
That's a bit like using dynamite to kill a mouse, right?  The rebels are more standup fight-types; not gas-grenade pitching cowards.   The risk of collateral damage would've been too great.  The gas used in a gas grenade might be fatal to some (many?) of the life-forms in Jabba's palace.

Building the lightsaber is indeed a right of passage, but one that comes earlier in the training.

Again; do we know this for fact?  Where is it established?   I've never seen it in the movies... we don't really know that those kids aren't using standard issue mini-sabers till they make their own someday.   And if it's something seen in the EU or the cartoons? I'd pretty much count those out; sounds like TFA is rewriting SW history... for the better. 

Loss of life would be minimal.  As it turned out, they caused a LOT of carnage getting Han out. 

Yes, but it was a standup fight; not some cowardly grenade toss.   Everyone who died in the sail barges was actively engaged in the fight and therefore it was fair game if they were killed.   Even Salacious Crumb (what a stupid name, BTW) was poking Threepio's eyes out. 

But killing people whose only offense is simply standing around Jabba's palace is, pardon mon Francais, chicken s#!t and unworthy of the values of the Rebel Alliance.   That's more of an Empire tactic.   It's not just winning the battle, it's HOW you win the battle. 

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 we don't really know that those kids aren't using standard issue mini-sabers till they make their own someday. 

It seems to me that they probably were. Unless there's some canon source that says otherwise, being able to craft your own saber  seems like more a rite of passage thing you'd do upon graduation. Or at least not until you graduate to field work with your Master.

I'm not sure of the benefit or why one would teach a seven or eight year old kid how to craft a weapon like that.

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Again; do we know this for fact?  Where is it established?   I've never seen it in the movies... we don't really know that those kids aren't using standard issue mini-sabers till they make their own someday.   And if it's something seen in the EU or the cartoons? I'd pretty much count those out; sounds like TFA is rewriting SW history... for the better. 

I don't know how much you would consider the cartoons to be canon.  I see no reason why not, given that they are written very much in line with the movies and seem fairly official.  We've even had Liam Neeson voice Quai Gon, Billy Dee Williams voice Lando, and James Earl Jones voice Darth Vader. 

I don't know if TFA is rewriting history, though I'd be willing to bet that the people making the cartoons have some rules that keep them in line with TFA.

I realize our opinions hold no weight in actual canon, but if I were to decide things, I would say that yes, the cartoons are canon, but only to the extent they don't directly contradict the movies.  If the movies contradict the cartoons, even after the cartoon airs, the movie would trump the cartoon.  But if the cartoon expands on the lore, I would say that it definitely counts.

Or at least not until you graduate to field work with your Master.

I'm not sure of the benefit or why one would teach a seven or eight year old kid how to craft a weapon like that.

 

I think if you combine cartoons with the prequels, then yes, kids make their own lightsaber.  Maybe not at age 7, but maybe by the time they are 12 or 13, they are training already. 

I will just say this--I feel the cartoons are very much worthy of the franchise.  The stories are strong and the continuity is good.

I'm also wondering if we will see characters from the cartoons in the movies at some point.  Like Asoka--she never became a Jedi, so technically, she didn't have to be killed by Vader.  We know now that she survives into the pre-A New Hope era and she can still wield a lightsaber.

Given that she is not human, no reason that she can't be more longer lived.

 

 

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Jabba didn't just shoot them because he wanted them to suffer. Luke killed Jabba's "pet" and orchestrated a plot to remove Jabba's favorite piece of art work - Han Solo (the smuggler who screwed up).

Threepio mentions that they would be digested for a long time and die in agony in the Sarlaac Pit. It wouldn't mean much if he shot them and threw their corpses into the maw.

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Jabba didn't just shoot them because he wanted them to suffer. Luke killed Jabba's "pet" and orchestrated a plot to remove Jabba's favorite piece of art work - Han Solo (the smuggler who screwed up).

Threepio mentions that they would be digested for a long time and die in agony in the Sarlaac Pit. It wouldn't mean much if he shot them and threw their corpses into the maw.

But some of us don't care for tension, storytelling elements, or things that aren't literal.

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It wouldn't mean much if he shot them and threw their corpses into the maw.

That would be more like Goodfellas than Star Wars... :P

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Jabba didn't just shoot them because he wanted them to suffer. Luke killed Jabba's "pet" and orchestrated a plot to remove Jabba's favorite piece of art work - Han Solo (the smuggler who screwed up).

Threepio mentions that they would be digested for a long time and die in agony in the Sarlaac Pit. It wouldn't mean much if he shot them and threw their corpses into the maw.

Well let's think about this for a minute.  C3PO mentions that they would be digested over 1000 years.  Sounds awful, until you realize that makes no sense.  Even if the beast lives that long, you wouldn't.  You would starve to death, and even if it naturally fed you, you would die of old age.  You would be a corpse for pretty much the whole time. 

And another thing--who would feed that monster? Because if it didn't move, it's not hard to avoid. 

But let's go further.  Luke just beat a different monster, with like 6 foot teeth, by himself, unarmed.  Jabba already tried to kill Luke and it failed miserably.  Wanting them to suffer is fine, but knowing what Jedi can do, and seeing what Luke just did, just shoot the guy. 

But some of us don't care for tension, storytelling elements, or things that aren't literal.

And others don't care about things like plotholes and logic.

 

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And another thing--who would feed that monster? Because if it didn't move, it's not hard to avoid. 

The occasional stray bantha or krayt dragon would do nicely;  it digests over a thousand years, hence a very SLOW metabolism.  Sounds like it doesn't eat much to begin with.  There are some animals that can go months without food.  Maybe it hibernates most of its considerable lifespan and only awakens when it feels a creature stumble into its maw.   Most of its life is spent in a dormant, 'power-down' mode, I would imagine.  Like the asteroid worms of "Empire."

It probably saw Jabba's sail barge battle as Thanksgiving dinner... 

But let's go further.  Luke just beat a different monster, with like 6 foot teeth, by himself, unarmed.  Jabba already tried to kill Luke and it failed miserably.  Wanting them to suffer is fine, but knowing what Jedi can do, and seeing what Luke just did, just shoot the guy. 

For the same stupid reason Bond and Batman villains have been leaving the heroes in easily escapable traps in every story ever... because story, that's why.   Otherwise all of these movies everywhere would be 20 minutes long and end with the hero dying.   Jabba wants his victims to suffer; that's the reason he kept Han suspended in carbonite instead of cutting off his head and placing it on a spike on his palace door....

These are simple adventure fantasies, not Dostoyevsky's "War And Peace."  

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For the same stupid reason Bond and Batman villains have been leaving the heroes in easily escapable traps in every story ever... because story, that's why.   Otherwise all of these movies everywhere would be 20 minutes long and end with the hero dying.   Jabba wants his victims to suffer; that's the reason he kept Han suspended in carbonite instead of cutting off his head and placing it on a spike on his palace door....

These are simple adventure fantasies, not Dostoyevsky's "War And Peace."  

Well, that is why I originally said that clearly Jabba never saw an episode of Batman.  And it's not illogical to have Jabba want his victims to suffer and do what he did to Han.  However, my main point is Jabba should be a fairly intelligent slug, and once he sees Luke kill that monster, he should have realized that Luke was a legit threat, probably had a legit plan, and should have bargained. 

 

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For the same stupid reason Bond and Batman villains have been leaving the heroes in easily escapable traps in every story ever... because story, that's why.   Otherwise all of these movies everywhere would be 20 minutes long and end with the hero dying.   Jabba wants his victims to suffer; that's the reason he kept Han suspended in carbonite instead of cutting off his head and placing it on a spike on his palace door....

These are simple adventure fantasies, not Dostoyevsky's "War And Peace."  

Well, that is why I originally said that clearly Jabba never saw an episode of Batman.  And it's not illogical to have Jabba want his victims to suffer and do what he did to Han.  However, my main point is Jabba should be a fairly intelligent slug, and once he sees Luke kill that monster, he should have realized that Luke was a legit threat, probably had a legit plan, and should have bargained. 

Yeah, and Ben Kenobi should've killed Vader on Mustafar.

The Imperials who raided the Tantive IV should've shot down ALL the escape pods.

Han should've given Jabba the 2,000 he got from Luke and Ben as a token of good faith before he left for Alderaan.

Greedo should've killed Han on sight.

Han was too trusting of Lando.

See where I'm going with this?

 

Star Wars isn't always known for having the tightest plotting in the movie world... I think you're obsessing over a moot point. 

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Kenobi not killing Vader when he had the chance was stupid, but I get it.  There was a little bit of compassion left.

You're damn right they should have shot all the escape pods.  That idiot brought down the entire Empire.

Han wasn't too bright, because that is a good idea.

Greedo not shooting on sight and Han being too trusting are things that I don't consider major plot holes.  People being burned by overtrust is very realistic.  As for Greedo, that wasn't unrealistic either.  It's possible he didn't know Han would be there, was a little lucky, and was too arrogant.

I know there is a lot of nitpicking, but Jabba should have bargained.

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The Imperials who raided the Tantive IV should've shot down ALL the escape pods.

This especially.

One laser shot and the rebellion is done.

One laser shot and no original trilogy... here's to them NOT firing. :laugh:

I know there is a lot of nitpicking, but Jabba should have bargained.

dead-horse.gif

And still it won't get up... ;)

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Kenobi not killing Vader when he had the chance was stupid, but I get it.  There was a little bit of compassion left.

You can argue that. I can also argue that it's not  particularly compassionate and merciful to leave him screaming and on fire. Obi-wan should have put him out of his misery.

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Kenobi not killing Vader when he had the chance was stupid, but I get it.  There was a little bit of compassion left.

You can argue that. I can also argue that it's not  particularly compassionate and merciful to leave him screaming and on fire. Obi-wan should have put him out of his misery.

Yeah, given the choice between slowly burning to death or say, a nice clean decapitation, I think I'd choose the latter.

But all of these nagging plot points; showing mercy to a merciless foe, Jabba not bargaining (Luke to Jabba: "You should've bargained, Jabba..."  Yeah; we get it.  Thanks), or Imperials not firing on errant escape pods, etc, is because movie.  

If people didn't act stupidly once in awhile, turning left when they should've made a right, etc?  Then half of movies/TV/fiction wouldn't exist.   

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If people didn't act stupidly once in awhile, turning left when they should've made a right, etc?  Then half of movies/TV/fiction wouldn't exist.   

That sums it up. Otherwise screenplays would take decades because you're trying to seal every potential bit of plot stupid.

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He told Vader that Vader killed her.   

I'm starting to believe he did. The more I think about it, the more I believe it's likely that, as Palpy telegraphed earlier, Anakin sucked the life out of her to survive his injuries long enough to be put in the suit.

So, Palpy didn't lie. Vader didn't intentionally kill her...but he still killed her.

And, if that's the scenario, then it's more Obi-Wan's fault that she's dead than Anakin's because he didn't take five more seconds and finish the job. 

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You can argue that. I can also argue that it's not  particularly compassionate and merciful to leave him screaming and on fire. Obi-wan should have put him out of his misery.

Depends.  He clearly couldn't do it, even if it's compassionate.

I'm starting to believe he did. The more I think about it, the more I believe it's likely that, as Palpy telegraphed earlier, Anakin sucked the life out of her to survive his injuries long enough to be put in the suit.

So, Palpy didn't lie. Vader didn't intentionally kill her...but he still killed her.

And, if that's the scenario, then it's more Obi-Wan's fault that she's dead than Anakin's because he didn't take five more seconds and finish the job. 

 

There's nothing in the movie to support that though.  It's a fun theory--but not canon.

 

Hey--anyone watch the Spidey v. Maul video I posted yet?

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There's nothing in the movie to support that though.  It's a fun theory--but not canon.

But the theory fits the events in the film, from the foreshadowing by Palpy, to the parallel cuts between Vader and a dying Padme. So there's actually plenty in the movie to support it.

And it's certainly more palatable than the notion that a woman with twins would die of a broken heart because of her man, which is ridiculous at best and misogynistic at worst. 

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You can argue that. I can also argue that it's not  particularly compassionate and merciful to leave him screaming and on fire. Obi-wan should have put him out of his misery.

Depends.  He clearly couldn't do it, even if it's compassionate.

I'm starting to believe he did. The more I think about it, the more I believe it's likely that, as Palpy telegraphed earlier, Anakin sucked the life out of her to survive his injuries long enough to be put in the suit.

So, Palpy didn't lie. Vader didn't intentionally kill her...but he still killed her.

And, if that's the scenario, then it's more Obi-Wan's fault that she's dead than Anakin's because he didn't take five more seconds and finish the job. 

 

There's nothing in the movie to support that though.  It's a fun theory--but not canon.

All ROTS (perfect acronym, BTW...) canon says is that Padme died of a broken heart, so I'd think that any and all theories/speculation are on the table.

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