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StillKirok

General Star Wars Discussion

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4 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

Couldn't agree more regarding implicit vs. explicit. In the Internet age, I think this is almost our light vs. dark ongoing battle. 

Interestingly, Ezra in Rebels has the very talent you postulate Rey possesses, in that he's sensed both past and future. There's a great ep in S2 where he, Kanan and Ahsoka end up trapped in a Jedi temple while Darth Vader's agents are outside breaking in, and they're assailed by all these visions because the Force is so strong in that place. It's both a playful treatment of the Force in instigating the drama, it reveals more about the nature of the Force being concentrated in certain places, but it loses none of its mystery while simultaneously working as a macguffin. 

I've already ordered the DVDs of S1 in my Netflix/Discflix queue.   Your mind trick worked on this weak minded fool... :P

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So in regards to Force powers .... you feel that it is limitless? So if Kylo Ren started to do this:

tumblr_mgr6utyoY31qfhq48o9_r2_250.gif

Would you be ok with that being a new Force power?

The reason I ask is because I am wondering what limits there are to the Force - if any. I know one could say "If Jedi/Sith could do that - why didn't they do it in the prequels?" One could argue that considering the long, lost history of the Jedi/Sith - a lot of ancient knowledge had been lost and their true potential never really known....

 

In regards to that Rey theory - I've heard that before. But according to Daisy Ridley - it is really "obvious". The theory Sehlat heard of doesn't sound "obvious" to me.

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4 hours ago, The Founder said:

So in regards to Force powers .... you feel that it is limitless? So if Kylo Ren started to do this:

tumblr_mgr6utyoY31qfhq48o9_r2_250.gif

Would you be ok with that being a new Force power?

The reason I ask is because I am wondering what limits there are to the Force - if any. I know one could say "If Jedi/Sith could do that - why didn't they do it in the prequels?" One could argue that considering the long, lost history of the Jedi/Sith - a lot of ancient knowledge had been lost and their true potential never really known....

 

In regards to that Rey theory - I've heard that before. But according to Daisy Ridley - it is really "obvious". The theory Sehlat heard of doesn't sound "obvious" to me.

I think the force itself is limitless; but it's usefulness depends on the relative skill of the operator channeling it.  It's like having a giant, limitless vat of beer, but still only being able to drink a bottle sized portion of it at a time before one would die of alcohol poisoning.  The force is infinite; the skill and channeling capacity of each individual user is not.

We know (from the dreadful prequels) that the Jedi had that super-fast jumping/sprinting thing (aka "Force speed" I think?); it was used when Qui Gonn and Obi Wan suddenly 'disappear' during the droideka standoff at the beginning of TPM, but that's not quite the same as teleportation. 

Bww1ml.gif

^ Wonder why they didn't use this about a million more times...

....it would've REALLY come in handy here:

8ap2Xw.gif

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Sehlat Vie said:

I think the force itself is limitless; but it's usefulness depends on the relative skill of the operator channeling it.  It's like having a giant, limitless vat of beer, but still only being able to drink a bottle sized portion of it at a time before one would die of alcohol poisoning.  The force is infinite; the skill and channeling capacity of each individual user is not.

We know (from the dreadful prequels) that the Jedi had that super-fast jumping/sprinting thing (aka "Force speed" I think?); it was used when Qui Gonn and Obi Wan suddenly 'disappear' during the droideka standoff at the beginning of TPM, but that's not quite the same as teleportation. 

Bww1ml.gif

^ Wonder why they didn't use this about a million more times...

....it would've REALLY come in handy here:

8ap2Xw.gif

 

 

Right - which makes me wonder if the "channelers" of the Force can do so much more with it than we've seen.

I wonder how fans reacted when we go from A New Hope where all Jedi seem to do is a Mind Trick (via Obi-Wan), feel the death of people (Alderaan's destruction), or use it to help them destroy the Death Star. Then we enter Empire Strikes Back where Luke is moving objects with his mind and can see a (possible) future. Darth Vader goes from choking people with his bare hands to using the Force to choke people out. Finally, in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor is shooting out lightening from his hands. I wonder if fans were like "WTF!?!?"

Plus, you bring up another thing I always wonder with Star Wars - why don't Jedi use the Force when it is appropriate. Instead of opening doors .... why not use Force speed in battle? Why not simply Force Push Darth Maul down the chasm before he can engage you in a duel? Why didn't Maul simply Force Push Obi-Wan when he was hanging off the ledge?

It seems so inconsistent.

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1 minute ago, The Founder said:

Right - which makes me wonder if the "channelers" of the Force can do so much more with it than we've seen.

I wonder how fans reacted when we go from A New Hope where all Jedi seem to do is a Mind Trick (via Obi-Wan), feel the death of people (Alderaan's destruction), or use it to help them destroy the Death Star. Then we enter Empire Strikes Back where Luke is moving objects with his mind and can see a (possible) future. Darth Vader goes from choking people with his bare hands to using the Force to choke people out. Finally, in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor is shooting out lightening from his hands. I wonder if fans were like "WTF!?!?"

Plus, you bring up another thing I always wonder with Star Wars - why don't Jedi use the Force when it is appropriate. Instead of opening doors .... why not use Force speed in battle? Why not simply Force Push Darth Maul down the chasm before he can engage you in a duel? Why didn't Maul simply Force Push Obi-Wan when he was hanging off the ledge?

It seems so inconsistent.

^
I think that's more a problem with the writing than the force... :laugh:

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Posted (edited)

The writing can be inconsistent, definitely.

In terms of the Kenobi and Maul scene, I seem to remember someone (a comment I saw from a random person online) saying that he might not have been able to use the force speed technique as he was tired out from the battle. (He had also just used a force jump just to get back to the right catwalk.)

The gif of the prequel duel reminds me of this article from the Roger Ebert site: http://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/the-dance-of-the-lightsabers-duels-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-vs-the-prequels

The author makes a good point about that particular moment, where the three characters are all forced to wait during the duel.

Edited by Explorer3

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17 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

The writing can be inconsistent, definitely.

In terms of the Kenobi and Maul scene, I seem to remember someone (a comment I saw from a random person online) saying that he might not have been able to use the force speed technique as he was tired out from the battle. (He had also just used a force jump just to get back to the right catwalk.)

The gif of the prequel duel reminds me of this article from the Roger Ebert site: http://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/the-dance-of-the-lightsabers-duels-in-the-original-star-wars-trilogy-vs-the-prequels

The author makes a good point about that particular moment, where the three characters are all forced to wait during the duel.

^
Good point; maybe exhaustion played a role in why they didn't use 'force speed' during the lightsaber battle, and yes; despite the dazzling (if somewhat overly balletic) choreography of the prequel lightsaber duels, there are many moments where characters are just 'waiting' for their turn to fight; it's pretty awkward in hindsight.  But then again, this is a common problem in ALL action movies where a hero takes on multiple villains or vice versa; Superman II"s 'big fight' in Metropolis suffered a similar problem, as did Man of Steel.  We never see villains or heroes gang up on their opponent; it's always politely mano-y-mano.

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If the Star Wars' movies implied using the Force was exhausting - then I would understand why they weren't Force throwing each other around during a lightsaber duel or a war scene. Because they need all their stamina for the fight. I get it.

But it is so inconsistent. At times they will use the Force in battle and other times they won't. To make matters worse - Yoda told Luke that manipulating objects through the Force is not different. The difference is in their minds. So lifting an X-Wing is the same as lifting a pebble. In fact, it's a lot like the Matrix movies where Morpheus is trying to teach Neo that the world is a simulation and they can do so much more if they just let go of their old thinking.

I love, love, love Star Wars but they are really bad with being consistent with the Force. How many times do they duel over a chasm and all it would take is a quick Force-push? At least in the video games - if you fight another Force wielder - the Force won't work on them like it does a Stormtrooper ...

I honestly hope to see some new Force powers. I for one think it would be cool if you could control fire or ice (for example). Star Wars has always been more sci-fi fantasy than fiction. Jedi are often likened to samurai but I also see them as wizards in a way. But maybe that is too much fantasy?

I think it would be cool if Luke, in his studies, uncovered old Force abilities that haven't been seen for a millennia. The prequels implied the Jedi had grown weak because something was clouding the Force. With episode 7 and there being "an awakening" maybe the Jedi can be so much more ....

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, The Founder said:

 

To make matters worse - Yoda told Luke that manipulating objects through the Force is not different. The difference is in their minds. So lifting an X-Wing is the same as lifting a pebble.

I would surmise that concentration is a key element of channeling the force.  It is all about the mind.  Perhaps in the heat of battle with so many distractions and such divided attention it would be more difficult to concentrate Force energy.  Similarly, who knows what kind of havoc your opponent is making with the Force.  He could be disrupting it in a way that makes certain force powers inaccessible. We certainly have seen characters resisting the force before like Kylo Ren's interrogation of Rey.

1 hour ago, The Founder said:

 

Jedi are often likened to samurai but I also see them as wizards in a way. But maybe that is too much fantasy?

I think of them as wizards in a way too.  Maybe because, when we are first introduced to Jedi with Obi-Wan, he is very wizardlike.  Alec Guinness brought that to the character.  Even Uncle Owen calls him a wizard, "That wizard is just a crazy old man!"  I certainly never thought of Alec Guiness's Obi-Wan as a samurai.  

Edited by Locutus

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31 minutes ago, Locutus said:

I would surmise that concentration is a key element of channeling the force.  It is all about the mind.  Perhaps in the heat of battle with so many distractions and such divided attention it would be more difficult to concentrate Force energy.  Similarly, who knows what kind of havoc your opponent is making with the Force.  He could be disrupting it in a way that makes certain force powers inaccessible. We certainly have seen characters resisting the force before like Kylo Ren's interrogation of Rey.

I think of them as wizards in a way too.  Maybe because, when we are first introduced to Jedi with Obi-Wan, he is very wizardlike.  Alec Guinness brought that to the character.  Even Uncle Owen calls him a wizard, "That wizard is just a crazy old man!"  I certainly never thought of Alec Guiness's Obi-Wan as a samurai.  

Good point and you are likely right about that. It probably requires strong focus to use the Force and when you are on a battlefield - you're more likely to be focusing on staying alive.

And yes - I think considering the "magical" aspect of Jedi (not just in power but in terms of how they are depicted) - it would not be outside the realm of possibility that through the Force there are a lot more "powers" to be used.

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Yep, that makes sense. It brings to mind the scene in TFA with Rey during the final duel -- she remembers the force, and takes a moment, closing her eyes, before attacking Kylo. I also like the scene Locutus mentioned, where Rey resists Kylo's attempt to interrogate her with the force. From what I remember, Kylo has quite an unsettled expression at the end of the scene. 

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There are so many ways of explaining away the lack of force-pushing at opportune moments, some of which you've all already covered here. It's not a coherent world, it's one that develops as more narrative layers are added to it. I actually see this as a boon - something I complain about a lot (many of you longtime Trekcore friends know this) is the modern tendency of media franchises to explicate everything when explanations are not necessarily needed. (Hi, newer ALIEN movies.)

Star Wars, with the prequel trilogy, was one of the first SF franchises to do that, but now it's turned that tendency on its head with all the spin-off animations and new movies. I like that it's broadened and deepened the details of the universe (and actually managed to explain away a lot of the awful storytelling missteps of the prequels by adding in the continuity of the Clone Wars show as a kind of narrative glue). It means there's more room for fan imagination, more mysteries where we can enjoy theorizing and coming up with our own lore. That's healthy, I think. Much moreso than how Lucas got in the end, attempting to nail down every last detail and in some cases, causing narrative goofs that'll never quite be mended. (We have to live with those, I think.) Interpretation is where it's at - because it leaves room for the viewer and reader's imagination, too.

That attitude - of Star Wars being much more than just a media property - would seem to be borne out by this very uncynical view by the keeper of the flame, Kathleen Kennedy. As the article notes, it's a translated piece, but if she did say this, it's nice to know they're that open-minded. Their current output would indicate it's the case. Of course they know what a cultural phenomenon it is, and that the Mouse demands buck$, but equally if they leave it all open for fandom's own imaginative investments = everybody happy.

http://www.jedinews.co.uk/film-music-tv/articles/production-anthology-films-episode-ix-enter-top-gear/

 

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8 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

So, after The Last Jedi, you won't have to wait as long for the next episode:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/star-wars-episode-ix-moves-to-may-2019-1794636919

^
That's a tall order, considering the rejiggering they'll have to do following Carrie Fisher's tragic passing.  I salute them for their confidence and hope they succeed.  The Mouse has done alright by Star Wars, in my book. 

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7 hours ago, Sehlat Vie said:

^
That's a tall order, considering the rejiggering they'll have to do following Carrie Fisher's tragic passing.  I salute them for their confidence and hope they succeed.  The Mouse has done alright by Star Wars, in my book. 

I read somewhere else - forget where, or I'd post the link - that the script had already been revamped and Carrie Fisher's final appearance confirmed as being in The Last Jedi.

Just watched the last ep of S3 of Brit comedy Catastrophe, in which she plays Rob Delaney's mother. It was the last perfomance she gave before she died - she was literally returning to LA after filming it - and she was just phenomenal. And hilarious. Damn, Carrie Fisher. We'll always be missing you.

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13 minutes ago, Robin Bland said:

I read somewhere else - forget where, or I'd post the link - that the script had already been revamped and Carrie Fisher's final appearance confirmed as being in The Last Jedi.

Just watched the last ep of S3 of Brit comedy Catastrophe, in which she plays Rob Delaney's mother. It was the last perfomance she gave before she died - she was literally returning to LA after filming it - and she was just phenomenal. And hilarious. Damn, Carrie Fisher. We'll always be missing you.

They broke the mold when they made Carrie Fisher; she was just one of a kind.

I've seen the documentary "Bright Lights" twice now, and I still tear each time.  I also get a chuckle out of the fact that Fisher and I have the EXACT same shower curtain; a Psycho-inspired hand/blood print gag shower curtain!  My wife and I put it up every Halloween, but Fisher had the chutzpah to keep hers up all year round.  How could you NOT love that lady??

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Thoughts after watching TFA again:

- Finn works well with almost any character he's with -- I'm thinking of his interactions with Rey, Poe, and Han.

- BB8 is very cute.

- The scene where they land on a planet to meet Maz is great. You see Rey looking at all the greenery in awe, and when they land she walks out and seems to be savouring the new environment. Nice little detail that works well.

- Rey must at least be as talented in the force as Luke, if not more so. She uses a force persuasion technique, she pulls the lightsaber to her as Luke did in ESB, she turns Kylo's force torture back on him, and she completely beats him at the end of the film. (Although he's been shot by Chewbacca before the fight, so that needs to be considered.)

- Snoke is boring. So is the other guy...I think his name is Hux.

- The final duel is probably one of the best in the series. It doesn't have the same emotional strength as the one in RotJ, but it's more interesting than the duels in ANH, AotC and RotS.

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25 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

Thoughts after watching TFA again:

- Finn works well with almost any character he's with -- I'm thinking of his interactions with Rey, Poe, and Han.

- BB8 is very cute.

- The scene where they land on a planet to meet Maz is great. You see Rey looking at all the greenery in awe, and when they land she walks out and seems to be savouring the new environment. Nice little detail that works well.

- Rey must at least be as talented in the force as Luke, if not more so. She uses a force persuasion technique, she pulls the lightsaber to her as Luke did in ESB, she turns Kylo's force torture back on him, and she completely beats him at the end of the film. (Although he's been shot by Chewbacca before the fight, so that needs to be considered.)

- Snoke is boring. So is the other guy...I think his name is Hux.

- The final duel is probably one of the best in the series. It doesn't have the same emotional strength as the one in RotJ, but it's more interesting than the duels in ANH, AotC and RotS.

^

Very much agreed on all points.  I'm a big fan of TFA; I see more in it each time I watch it.  Similar thoughts about Rogue One; I've seen it at theatres twice and on blu ray once, and I get more out of it each time. 

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Posted (edited)

I haven't watched Rogue One again, but I wouldn't mind doing so at some point. I prefer TFA, but RO definitely had some nice moments. (Although I wish Forest Whitaker's character had more to do.)

I'm still a bit worried about the next film, mainly because of Luke's final line in the trailer...I guess I'll have to wait for more footage or information before I can speculate properly, though.

Edited by Explorer3

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Yesterday, I just realized that May 25 was upon us; the actual 40th anniversary of the first movie's release.

C1v9FsPVEAE7fHD.jpg

So, I took to my blog and wrote a big, fat, picture filled recollection of memories and thoughts of seeing Star Wars (no damn New Hope!) for that first time, back in 1977...

Star Wars finally hits the big 4-0/Musings of a Middle Aged Geek/Wordpress.com

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