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StillKirok

General Star Wars Discussion

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That's your choice of course, though reality differs.  For example, you can choose not to accept that Darth Maul survived, but he did.  Plus, we have seen Rogue One incorporate Rebels into it.  A character from Clone Wars played a major role in Rogue One. 

I wouldn't be shocked to see more. 

As for reconciling, I think there would have to be a hierarchy.  Movies come first, then cartoons, then books, based on the reach those events have.  More people watch movies so that comes first, etc. 

^

And that's my POV, because let's face it; the vast majority of SW fans really don't care about Lucas' or Disney's EU of SW.  They want that feeling they first had in 1977 (or whenever they first discovered the films).  Most summer blockbusters have been "Chasing Star Wars" ever since.  The cartoons, books and all of that other stuff contradicts one or the other, and the prequels contradicted many elements of the original trilogy.  The OT is what I and most others fell in love with and that is the SW that I'mm true to.

It's all fiction anyway, so in light of that?  Personal head canon prevails.  I'll save reality for the real world, where it matters.  Momentary canon of a fictional franchise is meaningless to me; I couldn't care less.

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That's your choice of course, though reality differs. 

Reality is that it is all fictional, so it doesn't REALLY matter how one chooses to consume it and/or decide what they consider to be legit part of the universe or not. 

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That's your choice of course, though reality differs. 

Reality is that it is all fictional, so it doesn't REALLY matter how one chooses to consume it and/or decide what they consider to be legit part of the universe or not. 

^
Yep.  
;)

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Reality is that it is all fictional, so it doesn't REALLY matter how one chooses to consume it and/or decide what they consider to be legit part of the universe or not.

There's a difference between reality within the universe and personal reality.  The latter is essentially fan fiction.  For example, you could pretend that Spock Prime didn't die in Star Trek Beyond.  But that movie happened, and he did.  Sure, you can decide not to count anything, but since the studio does, for purposes of what they do from then on, it counts.

 

You're not going to see Shatner show up in a movie as Kirk without some explanation.  You're not going to see a movie with Brent Spiner as Data post Nemesis unless they rebuild him.  It is what it is. 

 

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Reality is that it is all fictional, so it doesn't REALLY matter how one chooses to consume it and/or decide what they consider to be legit part of the universe or not.

There's a difference between reality within the universe and personal reality.  The latter is essentially fan fiction.  For example, you could pretend that Spock Prime didn't die in Star Trek Beyond.  But that movie happened, and he did.  Sure, you can decide not to count anything, but since the studio does, for purposes of what they do from then on, it counts.

Yes, and if a really good novel or fanfic came out that has Spock Prime faking his own death (like Trip in "The Good That Men Do"), and I happened to enjoy it?  I'm good with that. 

You're not going to see Shatner show up in a movie as Kirk without some explanation.  You're not going to see a movie with Brent Spiner as Data post Nemesis unless they rebuild him.  It is what it is. 

It is what we choose it to be; it's a body of fiction (much of it contradictory).  Not immutable fact.   When fiction is contradictory?  Interpretation is up for grabs.

And speaking of Data, that 'dead' character has shown up post-NEM in the IDW graphic novels.  Lore's body hosted Data's mind (ala Spock's mind meld with McCoy in TSFS) and he became Data again.  In fact, Data was a starship captain now in the IDW graphic novels.   Death was little more than an inconvenience for him. 

Yes, it's not 'official,' but it's a logical extension of what we saw in NEM (since we saw clues that Data's persona was inside of Lore somewhere).  If a fan likes it and wants to make it his/her head canon?  So be it.  I'm not a fan of resurrecting dead characters, but sure, whatever floats one's boat.

I keep ST Continues' fan films as my personal head canon, as well as the Titan Doctor Who comics, so there's that.

Fictional universes are malleable and NOT fixed.   Fans can pick and choose whatever is out there; be it movies, graphic novels, books or whatever.  

For me?  Star Wars' continuity is the OT trilogy, a few elements of the prequels (such as Vader's fight with Kenobi at Mustafar), and the last two Disney movies.  I don't have time or life force left in me to start watching all of the cartoons from Day One, and the few I have tried didn't really impress me all that much, so I choose to ignore them. 

So if a SW cartoon or prequel movie does something stupid that doesn't jibe with the OT movies' continuity?  I can willfully choose to ignore it (much as TFA willfully ignored midichlorians).   

 

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I guess for you that's fine.  But for the world at large, the stories are what the studio puts out.  In Star Wars, that includes cartoons, which have been incorporated into the movies.  Not liking the prequels doesn't mean the prequels didn't happen. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if we see Hayden Christensen in a future Star Wars movie.

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First off, these rules of canon are pretty much for US.  The world at large doesn't care about canon.  If they made a new Trek and Data showed up, most people out there would be like "hey look, the TNG robot! I remember him" but most probably don't realize he got exploded in that film that practically nobody saw and even fans tend to dislike.  If after Beyond they made some casual reference to Spock Prime being on some diplomatic mission, it would only drive people like us nuts. The world at large won't care.

I think hard rules about canon defeat the purpose of the entertainment for me.  I am watching it for enjoyment, not for frustrating myself over whether what I enjoyed counted or not.  And if I personally think the Prequels didn't happen, then that is fine. The movie happened, but for me almost none of it actually gels with what came before, and since what came before was vastly more entertaining and fun? I don't count them.  They could make a great film starring Hayden Christensen or Ewan McGregor...but even I really enjoyed them I wouldn't count the prequels as canon for me.  Just my personal taste.

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First off, these rules of canon are pretty much for US.  The world at large doesn't care about canon.  If they made a new Trek and Data showed up, most people out there would be like "hey look, the TNG robot! I remember him" but most probably don't realize he got exploded in that film that practically nobody saw and even fans tend to dislike.  If after Beyond they made some casual reference to Spock Prime being on some diplomatic mission, it would only drive people like us nuts. The world at large won't care.

I think hard rules about canon defeat the purpose of the entertainment for me.  I am watching it for enjoyment, not for frustrating myself over whether what I enjoyed counted or not.  And if I personally think the Prequels didn't happen, then that is fine. The movie happened, but for me almost none of it actually gels with what came before, and since what came before was vastly more entertaining and fun? I don't count them.  They could make a great film starring Hayden Christensen or Ewan McGregor...but even I really enjoyed them I wouldn't count the prequels as canon for me.  Just my personal taste.

^
Yep.

I wouldn't be shocked if we see Hayden Christensen in a future Star Wars movie.

^
I doubt it though; Disney has been putting a bit of distance between it's 'new' SW movies and the prequels.   Wisely, IMO. 

Ewan McGregor had something of a subliminal voice cameo in TFA, but it was off-set by the voice of Alec McGuinness as well.   Disney's attitude towards the prequels seems to be "Let's not talk about them too much..."

Since Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker was arguably one of the more contentious elements of the prequels, I doubt we'll see him in the newer Disney SW movies.

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--- double post ---

Edited by Sim

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The only reason for me to care about canon is for the purpose of adjusting my expectations when it comes to further productions.

When Han died in TFA, that fact as "canon fact" only matters for me insofar I expect Ep. VIII to acknowledge this fact and continue the story accordingly.

Which is why the ST post-NEM "relaunch" novels are ("head", if you will) canon for me: It's most unlikely we'll ever see an "official" continuation of the 24th century shows on the screen again. So whatever happens with the characters post-NEM is absolutely up to our minds. So the novels are a continuation as good as any other -- and since they got a fairly wide distribution, perhaps even a better one than others, because I can at least share my views and opinions on it with others.

Edited by Sim

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The only reason for me to care about canon is for the purpose of adjusting my expectations when it comes to further productions.

When Han died in TFA, that fact as "canon fact" only matters for me insofar I expect Ep. VIII to acknowledge this fact and continue the story accordingly.

Which is why the ST post-NEM "relaunch" novels are ("head", if you will) canon for me: It's most unlikely we'll ever see an "official" continuation of the 24th century shows on the screen again. So whatever happens with the characters post-NEM is absolutely up to our minds. So the novels are a continuation as good as any other -- and since they got a fairly wide distribution, perhaps even a better one than others, because I can at least share my views and opinions on it with others.

^
This.

And given that the SW universe is primarily fueled by movie ticket sales and merchandise, it's unlikely that even Disney's TV shows will be the 'last word' with regards to SW continuity, so I really don't care to obsess over their minutiae.   I still remember the '90s when Lucasfilm (pre-Disney sale) told rabid SW fans that the books and other spinoffs were all canon as well.   Now they're no more than side-journeys or what-ifs.   I've also had this 'rug' pulled out from under me before, when I was 11 or so and eagerly read "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" thinking I had the official SW sequel in my greedy little mitts.   Not realizing it was only a tie-in novel and had no bearing on the actual sequel coming in two years (this was 1978).    

So, suffice it to say that when it comes to my personal Star Wars?  It don't mean a thing, if it ain't on that big silver screen... ;)

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The only reason for me to care about canon is for the purpose of adjusting my expectations when it comes to further productions.

When Han died in TFA, that fact as "canon fact" only matters for me insofar I expect Ep. VIII to acknowledge this fact and continue the story accordingly.

Which is why the ST post-NEM "relaunch" novels are ("head", if you will) canon for me: It's most unlikely we'll ever see an "official" continuation of the 24th century shows on the screen again. So whatever happens with the characters post-NEM is absolutely up to our minds. So the novels are a continuation as good as any other -- and since they got a fairly wide distribution, perhaps even a better one than others, because I can at least share my views and opinions on it with others.

^
This.

And given that the SW universe is primarily fueled by movie ticket sales and merchandise, it's unlikely that even Disney's TV shows will be the 'last word' with regards to SW continuity, so I really don't care to obsess over their minutiae.   I still remember the '90s when Lucasfilm (pre-Disney sale) told rabid SW fans that the books and other spinoffs were all canon as well.   Now they're no more than side-journeys or what-ifs.   I've also had this 'rug' pulled out from under me before, when I was 11 or so and eagerly read "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" thinking I had the official SW sequel in my greedy little mitts.   Not realizing it was only a tie-in novel and had no bearing on the actual sequel coming in two years (this was 1978).    

So, suffice it to say that when it comes to my personal Star Wars?  It don't mean a thing, if it ain't on that big silver screen... ;)

I agree on Star Wars... for me personally, only the movies matter, as I'm not into any of the animation series or expanded universe.

And as for canon? It does matter for me, because although the fictional world comes to life in my head, I want to be able to share it with other people.

Not sure why that is. But when I can share a certain work of fiction with others, it somehow feels more "real". Maybe it's something about projecting the own feelings towards others and vice versa, or something, haven't really thought this through (maybe Robin could present an interesting insight on the theory or philosophy of fiction? I have the feeling he might be in the know on some of these mechanisms).

So yeah, canon does matter insofar as it's a convention a certain number of people agree on to define their idea of a work of fiction. But it's no strict code of law or a Bible that was dictated by God himself, or something to that extent -- whenever a number of people that suffices for my sharing needs agrees on a shared fictional reality, it becomes true.

Likewise, when an aspect of this fictional world becomes so real for me in my head, this fantasy would probably be unfulfilled, if I didn't write it down -- as fan fiction -- to, again, share it with other people. Not that I have done so before, I haven't written fan fiction yet, but I perfectly sympathize with the notion of it.

Edited by Sim

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The only reason for me to care about canon is for the purpose of adjusting my expectations when it comes to further productions.

When Han died in TFA, that fact as "canon fact" only matters for me insofar I expect Ep. VIII to acknowledge this fact and continue the story accordingly.

Which is why the ST post-NEM "relaunch" novels are ("head", if you will) canon for me: It's most unlikely we'll ever see an "official" continuation of the 24th century shows on the screen again. So whatever happens with the characters post-NEM is absolutely up to our minds. So the novels are a continuation as good as any other -- and since they got a fairly wide distribution, perhaps even a better one than others, because I can at least share my views and opinions on it with others.

^
This.

And given that the SW universe is primarily fueled by movie ticket sales and merchandise, it's unlikely that even Disney's TV shows will be the 'last word' with regards to SW continuity, so I really don't care to obsess over their minutiae.   I still remember the '90s when Lucasfilm (pre-Disney sale) told rabid SW fans that the books and other spinoffs were all canon as well.   Now they're no more than side-journeys or what-ifs.   I've also had this 'rug' pulled out from under me before, when I was 11 or so and eagerly read "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" thinking I had the official SW sequel in my greedy little mitts.   Not realizing it was only a tie-in novel and had no bearing on the actual sequel coming in two years (this was 1978).    

So, suffice it to say that when it comes to my personal Star Wars?  It don't mean a thing, if it ain't on that big silver screen... ;)

I agree on Star Wars... for me personally, only the movies matter, as I'm not into any of the animation series or expanded universe.

And as for canon? It does matter for me, because although the fictional world comes to life in my head, I want to be able to share it with other people.

Not sure why that is. But when I can share a certain work of fiction with others, it somehow feels more "real". Maybe it's something about projecting the own feelings towards others and vice versa, or something, haven't really thought this through (maybe Robin could present an interesting insight on the theory or philosophy of fiction? I have the feeling he might be in the know on some of these mechanisms).

So yeah, canon does matter insofar as it's a convention a certain number of people agree on to define their idea of a work of fiction. But it's no strict code of law or a Bible that was dictated by God himself, or something to that extent -- whenever a number of people that suffices for my sharing needs agrees on a shared fictional reality, it becomes true.

Likewise, when an aspect of this fictional world becomes so real for me in my head, this fantasy would probably be unfulfilled, if I didn't write it down -- as fan fiction -- to, again, share it with other people. Not that I have done so before, I haven't written fan fiction yet, but I perfectly sympathize with the notion of it.

That is why I like and respect the original trilogy so much; it was such a neat, self contained universe with good consistency.  Then the prequels came along and blew so much of that internal logic to hell that I guess I just don't care anymore.

Now  I just want SW to be good, and to entertain me.  It's integrity was seriously breached with the prequels and all of the other tie-in stuff that it's no longer as 'special' as it used to be for me all those years ago.  Now I see the seams and the patches where I didn't before.  

I must say that Disney's SW movies have done a lot to restore much of my old feeling for the SW franchise. :happy:

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So, the Rogue One blu/DVD set is announced:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-rogue-one-blu-ray-is-filled-with-features-but-some-1792637059

But:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-rogue-one-blu-ray-is-filled-with-features-but-some-1792637059

Perhaps there will be another release later on, much like the 3D release  of TFA with extra footage...? Or maybe LF and the Mouse are keeping the case closed on this one for the time being, in full expectancy they can mine it for even greater rewards in years to come...

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So, the Rogue One blu/DVD set is announced:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-rogue-one-blu-ray-is-filled-with-features-but-some-1792637059

But:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-rogue-one-blu-ray-is-filled-with-features-but-some-1792637059

Perhaps there will be another release later on, much like the 3D release  of TFA with extra footage...? Or maybe LF and the Mouse are keeping the case closed on this one for the time being, in full expectancy they can mine it for even greater rewards in years to come...

Hmm...to wait or not to wait?  Knowing myself, I won't wait.  :P

To be honest, I still have my first generation Target-edition blu-ray of TFA, and I'm completely satisfied with it.  I've seen some off the newer deleted scenes in the later editions online, and I read about them in the novelization, so it's all good. 

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I liked The Force Awakens, although it felt a little insubstantial when it comes to the force itself. I'm sure that will be explored in the upcoming sequel, much like the relationship between A New Hope and Empire, but that aspect was still a little disappointing. (I know most people hate the prequels, but we still got little scenes here and there on the force, or how the Jedi perceive the force.) On the other hand, I definitely liked the new characters...Rey and Finn worked well, and Poe seems likeable too. Ben is...a bit odd for an antagonist, but interesting.

I still haven't seen Rogue One...sounds like it was pretty good.

 

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8 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

I liked The Force Awakens, although it felt a little insubstantial when it comes to the force itself. I'm sure that will be explored in the upcoming sequel, much like the relationship between A New Hope and Empire, but that aspect was still a little disappointing. (I know most people hate the prequels, but we still got little scenes here and there on the force, or how the Jedi perceive the force.) On the other hand, I definitely liked the new characters...Rey and Finn worked well, and Poe seems likeable too. Ben is...a bit odd for an antagonist, but interesting.

I still haven't seen Rogue One...sounds like it was pretty good.

 

Rogue One gets better on repeated viewings; I really enjoyed it at first, but on the second viewing the characters really came alive for me.

As for the force?  I personally prefer the force to remain somewhat mysterious, because you don't really want to 'explain away' the magic too much... ;)

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Posted (edited)

That is a fair point, and I agree to an extent. I guess what I would like is not so much a description of how the force itself works in a technical sense (like the midi-chlorian stuff), but maybe an exploration of how people personally approach it, like Yoda explaining the basic concepts behind being a Jedi to Luke, or Qui-Gon talking about the importance of the moment and 'the living force', or even Anakin talking to Padme here:

'Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi’s life. So, you might say, we are encouraged to love.'

Credit to this article for recording the above quote: http://www.tor.com/2016/12/29/can-jedi-have-sex-star-wars-anakin-padme/

That being said, I can understand why The Force Awakens didn't feature much of that, considering that Luke is the last Jedi left, and he's not exactly easy to find...

Edited by Explorer3

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4 minutes ago, Explorer3 said:

That is a fair point, and I agree to an extent. I guess what I would like is not so much a description of how the force itself works in a technical sense (like the midi-chlorian stuff), but maybe an exploration of how people personally approach it, like Yoda explaining the basic concepts behind being a Jedi to Luke, or Qui-Gon talking about the importance of the moment and 'the living force', or even Anakin talking to Padme here:

'Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi’s life. So, you might say, we are encouraged to love.'

Credit to this article for recording the above quote: http://www.tor.com/2016/12/29/can-jedi-have-sex-star-wars-anakin-padme/

That being said, I can understand why The Force Awakens didn't feature much of that, considering that Luke is the last Jedi left, and he's not exactly easy to find...

^
Yeah, Luke Skywalker is the galaxy's hide-and-seek champion, that's for sure... :P

And although Rogue One isn't really about the Jedi or their superpowers, the movie does have an interesting take on the force.

Hope you see it soon and I hope you enjoy it. 

 

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