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StillKirok

General Star Wars Discussion

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I don't know if there's a thread like this, and if there is, then maybe this thread can be closed, and I'll cut and paste anything here. But I did a search and found nothing like it.

So this thread is for anything in the movies that bothered you. Unanswered questions. Things that maybe you missed that someone else might have caught, or maybe knows of an answer based on a novel or comment by Lucas.

Here's one of my old time issues:

Luke essentially started his Jedi training under Obi-Wan in Star Wars. Fine.

From what we saw, the guy was gifted with the Force, and thanks to a little help, was able to use The Force to guide his shot and destroy the Death Star. Cool.

I don't know how much time passed between A New Hope and Empire.

I think I might have read somewhere it was about 3 years. I'm guessing in that time, Obi Wan's ghost appeared every so often and taught Luke some things, which is how he learned to use the Force to grab his lightsaber which was out of reach in the ice cave.

I can accept that. He learned a bit more than he had known before. Enough time passed, and he wasn't doing anything a youngling couldn't do.

So in Empire, he trains with Yoda.

What may or may not be known is that he had to be on Dagobah for months. That also means that the Falcon had to take months to get to Lando. That actually makes some sense too since their hyperdrive was out and space is pretty big.

Fine.

So in that time with Yoda, Luke's skills vastly improved.

He confronts Vader, and Vader owns him. Luke had some skills, but he was no match for Vader. The sword play was ok, though there was nothing to indicate Vader wasn't toying around with him. Vader really cleaned his clock.

So at the end of Empire, it's absolutely clear that Luke is no match for Vader and it's not even close. Vader is the top living ex-Jedi, and Luke is well, not.

No matter how strong you are in the Force, without training, you just don't have the experience to compete with a guy like Vader, who has been doing this his whole life.

Only Yoda would have been able to take Vader down, and Yoda was likely too old at that point.

And for the first time, now that I think of it, why didn't Yoda offer to go with Luke and do just that?

But that's not my issue, though I guess it's thread appropriate.

Between Empire and Jedi, Luke and the gang were working on an elaborate plan to free Han from Jabba. That was basically what they were up to, and I believe less than a year passed.

It takes years to become a Jedi.

Decades even.

Luke did NOT return to Yoda in between movies.

Luke could not have been training alone 24/7.

So how did Luke's skills improve to the point where he was able to beat Vader?

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On most of the points I agree, but on some I question the timeline:

I know the Falcon's hyperdrive is busted and it should've taken them YEARS (not months) to reach a neighboring system at sub-light speeds, even with Special Relativity going (which the SW universe seems to negate somehow). That's one I just chalk up to 'movie magic'; the same way I chalk up the use of sound in the vacuum of space, or fighter planes banking in spaceflight without air on their wings/rudders (objects in vacuum simply don't move like that). Or a giant, toothed space slug existing in a vacuum (!!) that eats what... spaceships? Poor thing must've been starving...

But none of these things bother me about SW because it's a fantasy; not science fiction.

There is NO appreciable 'science' in the SW universe, just as Dorothy never knows exactly WHY water melted the Wicked Witch of the West (was her green skin not water-based as ours?), or why the the witch's broom can fly and sky-write. And really that's not important. You either (voluntarily) lose yourself in the fantasy or you don't; plain and simple.

The sense of urgency that permeates both "A New Hope" and "The Empire Strikes Back" makes me doubt that Luke's training took months on Dagobah.

On the SW radio plays (NPR, 1981), the extended adaptation of "A New Hope" has Ben telling Luke that becoming a Jedi normally takes a lifetime of commitment, but that these are 'unique times with their own urgencies' (or words to that effect; I'm paraphrasing). I'm assuming he and Yoda gave Luke 'The Force for Dummies' version of Jedi training. Not to mention that Luke was already strong with the force; Ben knew it, as did Yoda. So I assuming the skipped the 'youngling' velvet gloves portion of the training and went straight to the heart of it. This was wartime. They hadn't the luxury of navel-gazing and long talks about the force...

It's amazing how things that normally take ages can be done in minutes if the need is urgent enough. ;)

As for Luke's ability to defeat Vader? Luke was a young, in-his-prime kid fighting a middle-aged bionic cripple, whose force capacity was no doubt diminished (just as Ben's had been in New Hope).

Granted, Luke wasn't as thoroughly trained as his Jedi predecessors had been, but again; he was properly motivated (Vader sent him into a tizzy when he suggested turning Luke's 'sisssster' Leia). And at that particular moment, he was tapping into the 'dark side' of the force, eliciting the Emperor's approval goading of "Gooood! Good.... your hate has made you powerful." It probably gave him an extra 'boost' of negative energy. As Yoda warned, the dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive."

As for Yoda not going with Luke to defeat Vader? You answered it yourself; he was too old (and dying; as we later see in ROTJ). His force powers were not what they used to be. Even lifting Luke's X-wing out of the Dagobah swamp in TESB seemed to drain him. In AOTC and ROTS, we see Yoda hurling heavy objects with relative ease....

And the three years between ANH and TESB I too assume (as you did) that Ben appeared to Luke many times to try to continue 'coaching' him as best he could. His ghostly presence on the ice plains of Hoth didn't seem too surprising to Luke at that point. He probably suggested Yoda take over for several reasons:

* Yoda is the best

* Yoda is still corporeal; it might be a 'drain' on Ben to appear to Luke from 'the other side' (I assume it's not easy... )

* He was too close to Luke; Yoda could be more objective

* He was worried about making the same mistakes he made with Anakin

But all in all, none of the timeline lapses of SW really annoy me, because the makers of the movies wisely chose to keep the timeline vague enough for an audience to 'fill in the blanks' themselves.

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My interpretation is that Darth Vader didn't want to kill Luke. It was a mix of Luke growing into power plus Vader holding back slightly against him. Luke channeled his rage and that was how he managed to beat Vader too. In other words, the amount of training was irrelevant (although it was clear that he was much more confident in his skills judging by how he behaved during the assault on Jabba's Palace). What was relevant that Luke and Vader were fighting a mental and emotional battle just as much as they were fighting a physical one.

On the things that annoy me...

Ok I know I've beaten this dead horse but I wouldn't be me if I didn't mention it. Midichlorians. I hate them. Just writing that word reminded me of like some type of bleach clorox that I need to use to clean my clothes. The idea absolutely ruins the Force. I hate to sound like a child and I usually hate when fans do this - but I pretend that scene never happened. That it was never mentioned. It's the only way I can stomach it. Either that or the Jedi "scientists" were simply wrong and those "cells" in the body have little connection to the Force. IDK....

Um...there is a lot in the EU (and I don't mean the European Union) that irritates me to no end. But there is so much that it would no doubt flood my post with useless prattling from my end. So I'll limit the purview to the movies...

I hate 99.999999% of the PT. I'm sorry. I just do. What I dislike about it is the same thing I dislike about VOY - it could have been so much more if done right. If VOY had not been TNG-lite, I might have pegged it to be my second favorite series in Trek after DS9. The PT could have had the potential to be one of the best stories in cinema. Shakespearean in its tragedy. Mind blowing in its action. Fun in its setting. It should have been what OT was for my generation to the next one. Granted - I've seen some kids (my nephew for one) that is mesmerized by the PT. So good for them if they love the movies. But...still...it could have been more...

I mean - a lot of it was in the OT already. Anakin's life told via Obi-Wan's ghost. Obi-Wan didn't discover Anakin. I never got the vibe that the two of them were friends. They seemed to grudgingly tolerate each other. More like adversaries that had a mutual respect, but were in constant competition with each other. Anakin was not a great pilot (DO NOT MENTION PODRACING). People know damn well that when Obi-Wan said Anakin was an amazing pilot they meant a STARFIGHTER. Like Luke. Anakin was a cruel, menacing, creepy, selfish, robot. I didn't feel at all sorry for him. By the end, I wanted Obi-Wan to just kill him already and be done with it.

Anakin as a messiah. What the hell is wrong with Lucas? There was no hint of this anywhere in the OT. Why was this added? It was there to make Anakin more important than he already was to galactic events. Did he have to be Jedi-Jesus? Why? Anakin killed Palpatine because he loved his son and didn't want him to end up the way he had. That's it. Not because he was destined to by the Jedi Bible. What the hell is wrong with Lucas?

The Clone Wars - as depicted in the movies - were stupid. Although, I did like how Palpatine played both sides and no matter which side won - he'd be at the top. It did make him brilliant. But how could the Jedi not see Palpatine was a Sith? In both AotC and RotS, the Jedi mention the "Dark Side surrounds the Chancellor". Uh....? At the very least, they should have clarified that line. As in, it doesn't necessarily mean he's a Sith Lord but that he is not a good person or that he maybe CONNECTED to the Sith Lord. But without evidence, they can't act on it. Something like that...

There is so much more I can add to this list. Despite that - I wanna make it clear that I love Star Wars...lol. Probably a bit more than I do Star Trek. Blasphemy I know!

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The beauty of the hyperdrive being out is that Luke COULD have spent months on Dagobah, and it actually makes a lot of sense that it took Han so long to get to Cloud City.

The sense of urgency to get to Leia and Han came toward the end of his time on Dagobah. So that doesn't really negate the months thing.

I can appreciate Yoda giving Luke the crash course in Jedi training. But even in wartime, you have to learn stuff, no matter how strong with the force you are.

I can also appreciate that Luke was young and in his prime, while Vader was say 50 something.

However, that matters in the real world, but it shouldn't in Star Wars. Look what Yoda did to Dooku at the age of 875 or so.

Obviously, Yoda's species is very long lived, but he died of old age 20 years later, so he had to be his species' equivalent to in his mid to late 80s. He kicked ass because he was that damn good with The Force.

Dooku too. He was likely older than Vader and took on Obi Wan and Anakin, with Anakin more trained than Luke and Obi Wan a fully trained Jedi in his prime. Kicked their butts.

So while logically, Luke being younger makes some sense, the Force abilities shouldn't have made age an issue. Vader's experience with the Force, his real training, and being absolutely as strong in the Force as Luke makes it seem that Vader should have beaten Luke easily, which he did in Empire.

My issue here is that what changed between Empire and Jedi that made Luke so much better? He didn't go back to Dagobah.

Even before he confronted Vader, it was clear he was much better than he was in Empire, but why?

Turning the topic...

The midichlorian thing doesn't annoy me from a plot hole standpoint, but I felt it was too "Star Trek." Star Trek is great in Star Trek, but it didn't feel right in Star Wars.

It made me feel that Kirk could have McCoy synthesize midichlorians, inject him with 10 times more than the Emperor, and Kirk would then kick the crap out of everyone evil.

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That's another thing I hate - the old people hopping around like they're on crack cocaine. What the hell is wrong with Lucas? Old Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader and the Emperor did not hop around doing back flips. There was nothing in the OT that suggested use of the Force spontaneously gave your body the ability to do these insanely stupid flips. I can stomach Luke, Maul, or young Obi-Wan (ep. 1) doing them...because they're young. Why the hell was Dooku doing all these flips? What reason was there for that? Why was Yoda doing that if he relies on a cane to walk!?

Lucas....seriously....are you mad that we didn't like the Ewoks and you're punishing us? Admit it.

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That's another thing I hate - the old people hopping around like they're on crack cocaine. What the hell is wrong with Lucas? Old Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader and the Emperor did not hop around doing back flips. There was nothing in the OT that suggested use of the Force spontaneously gave your body the ability to do these insanely stupid flips. I can stomach Luke, Maul, or young Obi-Wan (ep. 1) doing them...because they're young. Why the hell was Dooku doing all these flips? What reason was there for that? Why was Yoda doing that if he relies on a cane to walk!?

Lucas....seriously....are you mad that we didn't like the Ewoks and you're punishing us? Admit it.

Yes, 'rubber-Dooku' kind of contradicts the entire fight between Ben & Vader in ANH (which was supposed to be between an old man and a cripple). Rubber-Dooku looked ridiculous (as did Frogger-Yoda). Even if the tech was perfect, it still looks unbelievable somehow because the mind just knows that a body doesn't move like that...

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I think the answer is simply based on the real world. The tech is better today, and had they made ANH today, the Vader/Kenobi fight would have been like that.

Of course, had this really been the fourth movie, Kenobi's death would have been a lot more of a big deal.

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I think the answer is simply based on the real world. The tech is better today, and had they made ANH today, the Vader/Kenobi fight would have been like that.

I actually preferred it the way it was done in '77. It was more believable, really. The men looked like they were fighting 'age-appropriately.'

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I think the answer is simply based on the real world. The tech is better today, and had they made ANH today, the Vader/Kenobi fight would have been like that.

That would've killed the entire film for me. That would've been so, so bad.

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I think the answer is simply based on the real world. The tech is better today, and had they made ANH today, the Vader/Kenobi fight would have been like that.

I actually preferred it the way it was done in '77. It was more believable, really. The men looked like they were fighting 'age-appropriately.'

I've also heard it explained in-universe that both were also completely rusty, since neither had really been forced to use their lightsabers in a long time. Compare Vader in ANH and Empire. He's much more graceful in Empire than ANH. Since that time, Vader would have realized that Skywalker, being Force sensative, would have had to be faced sooner or later and would have gone back to training himself.

As for old Jedi and Sith hoping around in the PT, the only one I found hard to believe was AOTC's Yoda. But let's say the Force is as powerful as it is. If someone is that intune with it, as Yoda and Palpatine were, when they decided to fully rely on the Force, it would be able to give them much more agility than usual, and as Obi-Wan said, "The Force guides your actions" (basically) and if one relys on the Force completely, it's possible the Force will also send you twirling like a somersault ballerina.

I hate the one year time period between Empire and ROTJ. Two reasons why.

1: Before the PT came out, it was stated as three years between the two movies. Not one. But when the PT came out, they changed it to one (because it was morebelievable). Suuuuure.

2: Luke is much more powerful. He certainly couldn't have become that much more advanced in his skills in barely a years time. Three years just feels right.

Edited by Admiral Harmon

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And those are fair opinions.

I think a lot of people who view the original trilogy are very protective of what it was, and wouldn't want to see changes to it.

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And those are fair opinions.

I think a lot of people who view the original trilogy are very protective of what it was, and wouldn't want to see changes to it.

Same thing with any franchise. I don't mind changes, as long as they serve the story-telling to improve it.

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Sure. That's definitely true in Star Trek, and I think it's rightfully so.

And sometimes that protectiveness leads to results, like when they listened about Scotty's piss poor treatment in ST09, and made him much better in STID.

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Sure. That's definitely true in Star Trek, and I think it's rightfully so.

And sometimes that protectiveness leads to results, like when they listened about Scotty's piss poor treatment in ST09, and made him much better in STID.

That was one positive I can say about STID (character wise); Scotty actually got to be more central to the action in the movie.

But Pegg's portrayal is still so cynical and mean-spirited; it lacks the warmth and charm of the late Jimmy Doohan's characterization (even if the accent is arguably better).

I sincerely doubt that even an Delta Vega-exiled Scotty would become so bitter and unlovable as Pegg's....

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I don't understand the "inconsistency" of Luke's training. I've always believed that it was 6 months - 1 year between ESB and ROTJ. Luke doesn't come across as that much more powerful, but simply confident. The only new "trick" he does is the force choke (...who taught him that, btw?). The rest was him being quick with the lightsaber (if he trained daily on that, surely he could take down Jabba's low-rent thugs).

This was just never something that irritated me, TBH.

And on the issue of Lucas "would have" made Old Ben and Darth Vader doing flips? I feel like I'm about to puke...because it is true. I'm surprised he hadn't gone back and "remastered" that scene...:(

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Lots of stuff bugs me about SW. Honestly, I loved them as a kid, but I am not the type loves everything SW. I enjoyed the new movies, but is just won't watch them more than once. For me it is the back and forth and all of the special editions that Lucas has that makes changes to already good movies.

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The only new "trick" he does is the force choke (...who taught him that, btw?).

Force powers aren't inherently Dark or Light, it's how they're used. Unless you're so deeply in-tune with the Dark Side that you can throw lightning from your fingers, then yeah, you're an evil S.O.B. :P

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The only new "trick" he does is the force choke (...who taught him that, btw?).

Force powers aren't inherently Dark or Light, it's how they're used. Unless you're so deeply in-tune with the Dark Side that you can throw lightning from your fingers, then yeah, you're an evil S.O.B. :P

It's funny you say that - when I was little? That's how I saw the Force. The powers weren't Lightside or Darkside. It wasn't until later that they seemed to establish that ONLY people on this side could tap into power A or Z.

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It's funny you say that - when I was little? That's how I saw the Force. The powers weren't Lightside or Darkside. It wasn't until later that they seemed to establish that ONLY people on this side could tap into power A or Z.

The Founder is wise, even in the ways of The Force. :P

tumblr_m8tfm46ArP1qdxhroo4_250.gif

This is why the EU is good. It established this important precedent, which was further reinforced both by the novels, and by choices you make that are implemented in dozens of Star Wars games; which until this point, certain ones considered canon. You can play games like the Dark Forces series, KotOR, etc., where you have the power (no pun intended) to choose your abilities. It's about how a Jedi or Sith leads their life. A Sith can be gifted in healing abilities better known on the Light Side of the Force; and a Jedi can most certainly use the Force Choke if they're threatened or defending themselves, which was Luke's case in Return of the Jedi.

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It's funny you say that - when I was little? That's how I saw the Force. The powers weren't Lightside or Darkside. It wasn't until later that they seemed to establish that ONLY people on this side could tap into power A or Z.

The Founder is wise, even in the ways of The Force. :P

tumblr_m8tfm46ArP1qdxhroo4_250.gif

This is why the EU is good. It established this important precedent, which was further reinforced both by the novels, and by choices you make that are implemented in dozens of Star Wars games; which until this point, certain ones considered canon. You can play games like the Dark Forces series, KotOR, etc., where you have the power (no pun intended) to choose your abilities. It's about how a Jedi or Sith leads their life. A Sith can be gifted in healing abilities better known on the Light Side of the Force; and a Jedi can most certainly use the Force Choke if they're threatened or defending themselves, which was Luke's case in Return of the Jedi.

tumblr_mo20q3nUex1sty1dfo1_500.gif

Thank you! haha. That is an aspect of the EU (specifically the games) that I really like too. It's a shame that Lucas and his co-horts dropped the ball and just turned it into a super power aspect. Good and evil powers - rather than just using the Force itself and the power you use is less important than how you are using them.

Another thing that annoys me is the use of the Jedi and their "extinction". I never understood how Han Solo or certain Imperials treat the Force/Jedi as something that existed long ago. To the point where the Force is mocked as superstitious nonsense. Yet - only 30ish years before - the Jedi were running around in full force... Huh? That's like me, in the 1970s, claiming Nazis never existed. It was just superstitious boogiemen.

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My reaction to the EU....

exorcist-puke.gif

I keeeed. :P

I view the SW EU the same way I see religion; if it gives one comfort to believe in it? Fine. Just don't expect me to believe it as well... :laugh:

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Actually, expecting you to believe in the SW EU would be a new level of zealotry that is so much beyond, quite on par, way less aggressive than what many religious extremists do.

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I actually don't know if there is a General Star Wars thread.  I looked through 3 pages and saw a few specific ones, and since I didn't feel this Star Wars conversation belonged in any of them, I figured it was best do make a miscellaneous thread. 

Besides, all the specific Star Wars thread end up going off on tangents that are great, but still tangents.  If there is another thread out there, and you want to merge, I won't be offended.

Anyway, one of the biggest pet peeves among Star Wars fans seems to be Lucas having Greedo shoot first.

It really gets them mad, probably more than most of his changes.

So what's relevant is that a new article came out where Lucas defended the decision.  He said it was better because Han was going to marry Leia and it would be out of character for a hero to do that. 

Let's go with this and why I think Lucas is dead wrong.

Yes, Han shot first in the original version.  As someone watching the scene, I don't see anything wrong with it.  Greedo made it very clear that he was going to shoot Han.  He wanted Han dead.  That was going to happen.  If the viewer can see that, Han, not being stupid, would see it too.

Therefore, I would actually view Han shooting first as self defense.  It was more than reasonable that Han thought he was in grave danger and acted accordingly.

Now we need to carry Lucas' logic out further to show how full of it he is.

Let's use the same logic with Anakin.  Anakin was supposed to turn to the light side of the force and be redeemed at the end.  How can a guy who brutally murders dozens of innocent children be redeemable at all?  And simply by stopping his own son from being murdered?

I watched Episode IV the other day, and from what was stated, you could actually infer that Vader may not have actually got his own hands that dirty.  You can also actually find some room that Obi Wan and Yoda were NOT necessarily the last 2.  "All but extinct" was what I believe was used, and I think the line was something like Vader helped destroy them.

Anyway, maybe by watching the OT alone, Vader DID have some redeemability. 

If Lucas applied the same logic, then the scene where Vader kills the kids HAS to be completely cut.  How could he have Han, who shot in self defense, change, when Vader, who was to be redeemed, murder kids?

Very inconsistent.

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You once started a similar thread about the annoying things of Star Wars (Jan. 2014);  I think we could merge them, but keep the "General Discussion" title. 

 

And.... done;)

 

Quick thoughts on Han shooting first.  He did.  The End.

Han was a cold-blooded mercenary, not the warm-cuddly hero he evolved into by the end of ROTJ.  For Mr. Lucas, that's called a 'character arc'...

As for Vader slaughtering children?  That scene not only ruined Vader for me, but undid any shred of sympathy I might've ever had for Anakin.  He's a d!ck, and a lecherous, stalking, killer of children.  He doesn't deserve a happy ending partying in the afterlife.  If there were a 'force hell' he needs to be shoveling bantha pooh-dooh in it for eternity....

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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In my mind, Han shot first, end of story.  The cantina scene has a rhythm to it that is perfectly punctuated by Han shooting Greedo, whereas the remastered version made the scene look choppy and amateurish.  Han is a swashbuckler who sits perfectly in the gray area between hero and anti-hero.  He becomes what the situation requires.

In Eps. II and III, Anakin comes off as a pissed-off, petulant teenager trying to work out his angst rather than being established as a hero or anti-hero.  He's supposed to be madly in love with Padme, but the stilted writing and frankly amateur-hour acting that resulted kills their chemistry and Anakin becoming a villain comes about due to plot rather than the actions of a tragic figure doing anything it takes to save the woman he loves. (Also, why is that Anakin becomes Lord Vader after ten minutes of fealty to Palpatine, when other Sith apprentices had to spend their entire lives training?  It's not believable) 

If anything, learning more about Anakin's backstory damaged Vader as a character because he was originally an evil figure who liked being evil.  It's only at the end that he realizes his misdeeds and attempts to make amends for them by killing the Emperor.  Episode III makes it seem more like he stayed evil because he didn't have anything else better to do.  As for the killings?  Between Episode III and Episode IV, Vader killed a LOT of people, children included...

 

Edited by Captain_Bravo

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