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richpit

Supergirl?

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Superman is an ultimate character, but everything we have seen has always been from HIS perspective.

He's always been the center.

But let's take names out of the equation.

You have the show about someone who has an amazing big brother.  Everyone loves this big brother, and with good reason.  He's a good person, and your relationship with him is great.  He's there for you always.  And you for him.

But you are living in his shadow and sometimes that bothers you.  It's not his fault.  He is what he is, and he tries to give you your space, but that doesn't mean he won't be a part of your life or there for you when you need him.

He's your supporting character.  The show can center around the younger sibling, and the big brother can be his support, but it won't be about him.

Maybe a good sitcom equivalent would be Happy Days.  Richie was the center, Fonzie was the support, but Fonzie was the larger than life character.

And Fonzie stole the show; as did Urkel on Family Matters, and Sheldon on Big Bang Theory.  The 'breakout' character; the one who puts the show on the map.  That usually works only when the show is designed as a level playing field and it happens organically (the Spock/McCoy feud, for example; it was something the actors brought to the show with their chemistry).  

But Superman isn't an unknown character; he has nearly 80 years of myth and history that can't just be ignored.   Supergirl is also popular, but two alphas rarely cohabit peacefully in shared limelight.   Superman is arguably more universally known, so he can't just 'pretend' to be a supporting character.

Personally I wouldn't even have showed him in silhouette till about the second season or so.  I thought his (sort-of) appearance in episode 3 was a mistake.   He'd been mentioned and it's understood that he's out there, but having him as a panic button so early in the series undercut the point of Kara finding her own way.   Maybe Superman could've been in deep space on some kind of mission (ala Superman Returns, but for another reason), hence a void is left in demigod saviors.   That scenario, at least, would've given Kara the opportunity to sink or swim without her cousin's help and establish her own reliability.

Then, maybe, if the show survived to a second year?  They could've talked crossovers.   As it is, I think they jumped the gun. 

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She's not incompetent.  She's young and inexperienced.  In the very same episode, they showed that she was able to beat a villain that Superman never beat. 

Superman was there when she needed him, but that doesn't mean he will be there all the time.  In fact, he made it a point to say that he will let her fight her own battles. 
 

I guess I'm thinking of a show where there would be no restrictions on Superman's use.

This show would be different.  The writers have their hands tied to an extent. 

I think the show is good, though not perfect.  I'm enjoying it though.

I'm cool with young and inexperienced....up to a certain point. Some of what we saw recently crosses straight into teen-dumb blonde high school drama. And yes, incompetent. 

I would have been fine with that type of characterization had she been Kara from the Superman Animated Adventures/JLU(a teenager). But this Kara is not a teen. She's mid to late 20's if I recall. As such I expect a person who knows who she is. Not this type of teenage angst drama of "Who am I"? She's had quite a number of years since arriving on Earth to think about that. Donning a cape doesn't all of a sudden launch her into identity crisis mode. 

I agree that Superman is an issue in this series and I don't think they have set that up well for success. It was great to see them exchanging instant messages. Couldn't they have been doing that all along? 

I'm also not quite fond that they've replicated the Arrow/Flash formula of having a support team. In this case, she has two. It works well for those two series but here it feels like a copy or forced. 

Considering the angle they've taken then the aspect of the missing mentor(Superman) is a huge gap. Somehow they should have thought that out better and perhaps paired her up with another female superhero(Wonder Woman, Black Canary, a reformed Cat Woman, etc...); someone older and experienced who could have provided that mentorship than the all powerful Kal El. Then they could have had that "big sis"(cliched) relationship; ditching the paramilitary group and the older sister. 

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Considering the angle they've taken then the aspect of the missing mentor(Superman) is a huge gap. Somehow they should have thought that out better and perhaps paired her up with another female superhero(Wonder Woman, Black Canary, a reformed Cat Woman, etc...); someone older and experienced who could have provided that mentorship than the all powerful Kal El. Then they could have had that "big sis"(cliched) relationship; ditching the paramilitary group and the older sister. 

This here, I think that's exactly what should have happened instead of what has.

As it stands now, she's gun muscle for the feds grovelling for scraps of approval from the silhouette of Superman.  

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Considering the angle they've taken then the aspect of the missing mentor(Superman) is a huge gap. Somehow they should have thought that out better and perhaps paired her up with another female superhero(Wonder Woman, Black Canary, a reformed Cat Woman, etc...); someone older and experienced who could have provided that mentorship than the all powerful Kal El. Then they could have had that "big sis"(cliched) relationship; ditching the paramilitary group and the older sister. 

This here, I think that's exactly what should have happened instead of what has.

As it stands now, she's gun muscle for the feds grovelling for scraps of approval from the silhouette of Superman.  

^

This.
This is what I meant by a feeling of lacking confidence in the show and its concept.  Three episodes in, and they already call in the big guns.   The show runners seem to reflect the same lack of confidence in Kara that the other characters do, and that's a shame, because Benoist plays the hell out of the part (despite the whiny angst part of it; I like characters with human failings... even if they're omnipotent).

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Oh, she really does a good job with what she's given. She's a surprisingly good actress, I just don't like what she's given.

At the rate they're going her angst will linger until season 5.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Fonzie was a break out character, but the show still centered on Richie.  If you want to go further back, let's look at any show with a big brother, like say, Leave it to Beaver.  Wally was a good big brother, but didn't steal the show.  The skipper didn't take anything away from Gilligan.  He complemented him.

Professor Arturo was a great character, and a mentor to Quinn Mallory, but Quinn was the star. 

 

My point is that it is absolutely possible for Superman to be a supporting character if they had the rights to do it.  He wouldn't drive the show.  In fact, it might be a very interesting and different perspective.

Let's look at the TNG episode Lower Decks, which focused on four members of the Enterprise crew, and kind of relegated the main cast to supporting characters.  Picard was still in it and important, but was a supporting character. 

In this show, I actually liked that we saw Clark like that.  I get what you're saying, but think about this--Superman is so important to the world.  He is in his prime.  Now Supergirl comes along and she's brand new.  What would his relationship be with her? 
 

It would be very strong.  From his perspective not only is she from his planet, but she's related to him.  She represents a dream he would have had his whole life.  Suddenly he's not alone.  Sure he loves his world and the people in it, but she's his blood.  Next to finding out Jor-El and Lara actually survived, or he had siblings, Kara's existence doesn't get any better for him.

From her point of view, her mission got all messed up.  She was supposed to be his big sister/cousin, and things turned out the exact opposite.  He's someone that Kara can strive to be like and look up to, which given her age, is just as big of a gift.

He sets and example, but casts a huge shadow.  She doesn't resent it, but she wants to step outside of it and be her own person.  But either way, he's in her life.

The most UNrealistic thing has been how little we have seen of him, and I think addressing that yes, they do have a relationship early on is very important.

If her life is on the line, and if she's facing a villain that even Clark didn't beat, then you bet Clark would be there in a heartbeat to help her.  Don't confuse that with a true crossover, and the show also established that Clark is only going to be there for her as sparingly as possible.  Yet that promise he made?  I don't see how he can avoid breaking it.

As to the point of pairing her up with Wonder Woman--HELL YES.

That actually happened in a comics story--she ended up training with the Amazons for awhile.  She would end up a better hero for it, and she would have someone less protective of her than Clark to let her reach her true potential.

No matter what, you can't train family the same way.  I'd love for them to establish the existence of other DC heroes and heroines.  It would serve the purpose well, and it would be good for Kara to have a mentor other than Clark.  Maybe Diana is too big a name, but there are others she can admire.  Batgirl could be a peer.  Maybe even a female Green Lantern from another sector, or an amazon OTHER than Wonder Woman, like Hippolyta.

 

And they don't even need another female hero to be a mentor--there are other Justice League heroes that could help, like John Stewart or maybe someone from one of the other shows.  A crossover of a minor character to establish they are in the same universe.

Finally, I have thought a lot about the support team idea, and the more I think about it, the more logical it is that a superhero would have a group support team.  Ok, so Superman and Batman are extraordinary people who can go it alone, though actually, Batman had Alfred and eventually Robin and Batgirl and more Robins, Nightwing, and others backing him up.

It actually makes sense.

 

 

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Fonzie was a break out character, but the show still centered on Richie. 

Not really. It tried to, and succeeded to arguable degrees, but not really. At the risk of dating myself...when the show would air my friends weren't all over school the next day singing, "I found my thrill..." Once that show hit its stride and truly hit, it was The Fonzie Show and it never stopped being that in the same way that you can try to say ensemble all you want, but when Lost in Space was on the air and kids were invited to the set, Guy Williams was miffed that Jonathan Harris was the one they headed to like moths to flame.

 The skipper didn't take anything away from Gilligan.

Because Hale never caught public interest and therefore eclipsed him the way Fonzie did Richie or Spock did Kirk. Shatner didn't go to Roddenberry and want the Kirk/Spock friendship played up for nothing. Spock caught fire. Spock was the breakout character. Spock was set to eclipse the others, and I can argue that he did and still does. 

Finally, I have thought a lot about the support team idea, and the more I think about it, the more logical it is that a superhero would have a group support team.  Ok, so Superman and Batman are extraordinary people who can go it alone, 

By her very nature, so can Kara. To suggest that she can't weakens her. And there is the fact is that this "support team" is not a support team. Alfred does what Wayne wants done. This support team runs Kara for the most part. She goes where they say to go, not the reverse. So they aren't a support team as much as they are her government handlers.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Fonzie was a break out character, but the show still centered on Richie.  If you want to go further back, let's look at any show with a big brother, like say, Leave it to Beaver.  Wally was a good big brother, but didn't steal the show.  The skipper didn't take anything away from Gilligan.  He complemented him.

Not really.  Richie left the show and Fonzie moved in front and center.   Not to mention that Fonzie didn't join the show with 75 years plus history.  THAT'S the reality of Superman; he's not, nor could he ever be, a member of a humble ensemble because, well... he's Superman, for chrissakes.  The guy's had his own comic strip and movie series.   The Fonz, Gilligan, and any other breakout character differentiated themselves from an ensemble cast; they NEVER came into their respective shows with the kind of history and baggage that Superman would come into "Supergirl."  Again, it's a false equivalency.  

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And on THIS show, which is too new, no supporting character is a breakout.  Break out characters are very hard to predict.  I don't think anyone expected Steve Urkel to do what he did when they brought him on as a guest.

It's all about perspective.  Any character can be a supporting character if he's written that way.

This isn't Superman's story.  It's Supergirl's, but Superman does exist.  It would be a challenge to move the center over to Kara, but I think these writers absolutely can do it.

I realize this is unique, but TV has tried unique angles with superheroes before with varying degrees of success.  Something like that would be original, but we had a ten year series that had Clark in action, but no Superman.  Lois and Clark was the first series to give Lois an equal billing rather than as a supporting character. 

Gotham has Bruce Wayne as a secondary character.  I know he's still a kid, but this is still a Batman show focused on Gordon more than Bruce.  This isn't completely Bruce's story.

So moving forward a bit but staying on topic---

 

Tonight's episode was rescheduled and replaced with the episode that was supposed to follow it.  Apparently, the episode had Kara flying around stopping bombs in the city, and they felt it was too close to what happened in Paris.

I sort of get that, but if the majority of the audience is in the States, I don't think that people are so emotionally hurting that they can't distinguish fiction and reality. 

That said, I'm guessing they will air this episode in a few weeks. 

Tonight is going to be interesting.  I believe they are introducing Livewire, who I think was a villain created solely for the cartoon, but caught on a bit.  Plus, Helen Slater is in this episode so that could be fun.

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It's all about perspective.  Any character can be a supporting character if he's written that way.

Yes, but Superman is simply cannot be written as a supporting character.  By his very name, he is a super man.   The best way to show him is indirectly (as they've done), because as a character (cast with a face-attached actor), he automatically is the most interesting person in the room.  He's an omnipotent demigod from another planet; how can he NOT be main character (??).   If you have an elevator full of everyday people talking about their lives and suddenly a guy with the body of an adonis wearing red boots and a cape walks in?  Take a wild guess who'll get the attention...

It's just not likely, or at the very least not very smart, to try to use a character with such a history in comics, film and television as a B-character.   The producers would've been wiser to have kept him completely off screen (in text only maybe?) till the 2nd year.

This isn't Superman's story.  It's Supergirl's, but Superman does exist.  It would be a challenge to move the center over to Kara, but I think these writers absolutely can do it.

But the point is, they don't HAVE to.  Focus on Kara first and foremost, otherwise it's not her show.   

Gotham has Bruce Wayne as a secondary character.  I know he's still a kid, but this is still a Batman show focused on Gordon more than Bruce.  This isn't completely Bruce's story.

The only reason that works is precisely BECAUSE Bruce Wayne is still a kid; no one wants to see a primetime show focusing on an angsty, sad-faced kid who has lost his parents.  He's only truly interesting when he becomes Batman.  Until then, he's little better than a pod racing Anakin Skywalker.   If Bruce Wayne were already Batman, audiences would be asking why the hell are you focusing on Jim Gordon when no one else gives a s#!t?   

And from the ratings of Gotham lately?  I'd say they've already stopped giving a s#!t.  

Last I saw of Gotham (admittedly it's been a while) it was an ordinary cop show with a lot of name-dropping.  Nothing special.

Tonight's episode was rescheduled and replaced with the episode that was supposed to follow it.  Apparently, the episode had Kara flying around stopping bombs in the city, and they felt it was too close to what happened in Paris.

I sort of get that, but if the majority of the audience is in the States, I don't think that people are so emotionally hurting that they can't distinguish fiction and reality.

 

No, but there is a thing called 'too soon.'  It's not confusing reality with fantasy; it's fantasy hitting too close to reality.   France has just been through their equivalent of 9/11, and it was only a few days ago.  They don't need a fantasy show that looks more like their evening news tonight.

That was a wise call, IMO.   Yes, the majority of the audience is in the US, but that doesn't mean you have to further scar those who might be watching in Paris.   Or to those who have relatives born in France (my own late father, for example).   They can always show it later.   Buffy had a similar issue with an episode in which a student was thinking about shooting up his class, and it was to air right after the Columbine massacre in '99.  They were wise to preempt it IMO, and the show went on for 5 or so seasons afterward, so it didn't impact the overall success of it at all. 

A little audience sensitivity is both good karma and good PR.  

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The only reason that works is precisely BECAUSE Bruce Wayne is still a kid; no one wants to see a primetime show focusing on an angsty, sad-faced kid who has lost his parents.  He's only truly interesting when he becomes Batman.  Until then, he's little better than a pod racing Anakin Skywalker.   If Bruce Wayne were already Batman, audiences would be asking why the hell are you focusing on Jim Gordon when no one else gives a s#!t?   

This. Seriously.

The minute he becomes Batman, no one gives a damn about Gordon.

Of course, lots of people aren't caring to start with because we all know that Gordon is essentially inept and loses control of the city, if any was there to begin with. 

No, but there is a thing called 'too soon.'  It's not confusing reality with fantasy; it's fantasy hitting too close to reality.   France has just been through their equivalent of 9/11, and it was only a few days ago.  They don't need a fantasy show that looks more like their evening news tonight.

I've seen plenty of aftermath video these days and I don't feel like watching the bombs actually go off.

And, not to get too KM around here, but it's relevant. There are many people currently fearing that happening here in the immediate future. The GOP frontrunner is talking about closing Mosques. The last thing that needs to be airing this evening is buildings getting bombed because it's simply stoking paranoia. 

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Superman has worked in Justice League as part of an ensemble.  Yes, he's the leader or should be, but he's not so dominating.

With good writing, I can see Superman being that supporting character for Kara.  He's sort of doing that now, but a little less than really works if things were unlimited.

 

From what I've heard about Gotham's ratings, they are fairly steady.  I haven't read anything about the show being in danger.

Thing is, in reality, I agree that people want to see Batman.  But here's an example though of Bruce being secondary.

I'm not too overly upset about the decision to move this Supergirl episode, as long as it does eventually air.  Personally I wouldn't be inspired to go out and kill Muslims if Kara stops a bomb, and if I were that type, then Supergirl not airing this episode now wouldn't make me rethink or calm me down.

What Supergirl is doing is not unprecedented.  The only show that couldn't truly alter anything is Quantico because well, that's their whole show.

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Personally I wouldn't be inspired to go out and kill Muslims if Kara stops a bomb, and if I were that type, then Supergirl not airing this episode now wouldn't make me rethink or calm me down.

And there's no reason to give these people that much more fuel for their paranoia, even if it is in the form of CGI that's surprisingly atrocious for a big budget show in 2015. 

From what I've heard about Gotham's ratings, they are fairly steady.  I haven't read anything about the show being in danger.

 

It's not, at least not unless they crash between now and May. Fox has bigger problems.

 Thing is, in reality, I agree that people want to see Batman.  But here's an example though of Bruce being secondary.

Only because, at this point, Wayne is physically incapable of being Batman. It's not the same thing. 

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And there's no reason to give these people that much more fuel for their paranoia, even if it is in the form of CGI that's surprisingly atrocious for a big budget show in 2015. 

I don't see how this episode will fuel paranoia or anything else.  I'm willing to bet, without any knowledge or insight, that there is a 100 percent chance that whoever the bad guy is on this episode, it will not be a Muslim. 

But you actually touched on another point.  The CGI on this show is not very good.  Considering these guys are a machine based on Flash and they ARE capable of doing well, not to mention that effects should be easier and cheaper today than a decade ago, and Lois and Clark had effects that seemed better, what gives?

As much as I enjoy this show, I'm going to acknowledge this weakness.

Only because, at this point, Wayne is physically incapable of being Batman. It's not the same thing. 

Right, though talented writers would be able to pull this off.  I'm sure of it.  It's just hard to really imagine it since it hasn't been done.

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The second Bruce Wayne becomes a functional Batman?  The show's focus will automatically switch because with a 4.0 rating (last I heard; last week's ratings; almost a third of The Walking Dead, which is on basic cable) it's clear that audiences aren't as in love with the Adventures of Jim Gordon as they are with Batman.

As with Supergirl and the decision to preempt the bombing episode?  I don't think that anyone's particularly worried about it inspiring anti-Muslim actions as much as seeing bombs detonate all over a fictional city on TV only a few days after the world collectively shared in Paris' horror is insensitive and poorly timed.   I'm sure it'll air a bit later when things have calmed down, but I agree with the network's decision; airing it right now is just bad timing.   That's all. 

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Of course, that's a different show with a different focus.  I think Supergirl is a bit different since she's a hero in her own right and not just a prominent cop like Gordon.

Personally, I am a bit old school, and I feel that if there is a Batman live action series, it should feature Batman, in his prime, doing Batman things.

It CAN be done on a lower budget than a movie.  Arrow is a very similar hero.  I always feel that superhero shows should feature our heroes, in their prime, doing what they do.

I think that's part of why I like The Flash, Arrow, and Supergirl like I do. 

Gotham is a Batman show without Batman.  Supergirl is NOT a Superman show without Superman.  Whether she is a strong enough character to hold the lead is another story. 

Pick a hero as A list as Superman.

Batman?

If there was a Batman show, could Superman be a supporting character, showing up a few times a year to help Batman out? 

Vice versa--could that work with Batman being a supporting character?

I think it could work if the writing was good enough.

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I don't see how this episode will fuel paranoia or anything else.  I'm willing to bet, without any knowledge or insight, that there is a 100 percent chance that whoever the bad guy is on this episode, it will not be a Muslim. 

The sight of simply seeing buildings blow up is going to be enough for some people in the same way some people can't watch crime shows because they serve as triggers. With the entire planet on edge at the moment there's really no reason to air it tonight.

 But you actually touched on another point.  The CGI on this show is not very good.  Considering these guys are a machine based on Flash and they ARE capable of doing well, not to mention that effects should be easier and cheaper today than a decade ago, and Lois and Clark had effects that seemed better, what gives?

Too much of the money is going to the cast. I'm sure Flockhart alone doesn't come cheap/ 

The second Bruce Wayne becomes a functional Batman?  The show's focus will automatically switch because with a 4.0 rating (last I heard; last week's ratings; almost a third of The Walking Dead, which is on basic cable) it's clear that audiences aren't as in love with the Adventures of Jim Gordon as they are with Batman.

This.

Jim Gordon cannot be the focus of the show in the face of a fully functioning Batman. No one will care and there's no way to write it so they will.

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From what I understand, airing the episodes out of order (I do believe they are airing the episode originally for tonight next week) doesn't affect much in terms of story except that we would have met Cat's son that she casually mentioned in the episode shown and we would have seen more of James and Lucy and how Kara deals with their relationship. 

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From what I understand, airing the episodes out of order (I do believe they are airing the episode originally for tonight next week) doesn't affect much in terms of story except that we would have met Cat's son that she casually mentioned in the episode shown and we would have seen more of James and Lucy and how Kara deals with their relationship. 

Have to admit; it's kind of rare to find a series these days that isn't so heavily serialized.   Most shows now are kind of ruined when shown out of order (see: "Firefly").  At least for shows that don't have CSI in the title... :P

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The sight of simply seeing buildings blow up is going to be enough for some people in the same way some people can't watch crime shows because they serve as triggers. With the entire planet on edge at the moment there's really no reason to air it tonight.

 

Eh.  Those people are crazy.  They will be crazy whether this episode aired or not.  Anyone who is inclined to blow up a building isn't going to be put over the edge by an episode of Supergirl.

 

Too much of the money is going to the cast. I'm sure Flockhart alone doesn't come cheap/ 

Is Flockhart really that big of a deal?  She was the star of a show over 10 years ago and hasn't done all that much since.

From what I understand, airing the episodes out of order (I do believe they are airing the episode originally for tonight next week) doesn't affect much in terms of story except that we would have met Cat's son that she casually mentioned in the episode shown and we would have seen more of James and Lucy and how Kara deals with their relationship. 

If I'm reading the previews right, the episode will air next week.

Seeing this episode out of order wasn't THAT big of a deal.

 

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I watch the first 2 episodes and I really liked it - hope they get Cavill to do a little cameo as Superman (although this is unlikely).

And Melissa Benoist is charming and excellent as Kara / Supergirl. Love her in the role.

Gus

 

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They will be crazy whether this episode aired or not.  Anyone who is inclined to blow up a building isn't going to be put over the edge by an episode of Supergirl.

The deference wasn't so much for the potential bombers as much as for the ones who fear that they could be the victim. People are already on edge. There's no reason to show them the boom.

 Is Flockhart really that big of a deal?  She was the star of a show over 10 years ago and hasn't done all that much since.

Name recognition. And she has fans. And that's what she could get. Cuba Gooding Jr. still makes $1-$2.5M per film and he peaked 20 years ago.

 

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I'm not sure I've seen Flockheart in anything since Ally McBeal ended.  I didn't know she still acted!

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I think she flat out quit for a while about the time she got with Harrison Ford 

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If Superman is going to get a cameo, I highly doubt it will be Cavill doing the part.  It would be very interesting though, because that would establish or at least imply that this show is in the movie universe, and Benoist could play the role there. 

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