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Maltz

Origin of the Terran Empire

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In regards to the mirror universe's Terran Empire, when and how do we suppose it came about? Archer states that it's existed for centuries as of 2155, so it would seem it's been around since at least the mid-twentieth century. Given its culture, one theory I've been formulating is that in the early decades of the 20th century in the MU, fascism was much more successful, with such movements gaining power in Britain and the United States. They would have allied with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy against the Soviet Union and, upon defeating Communism, united to form a single global state - the Terran Empire.

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I don't know.  Seems that up to First Contact history was going about like it did in the Primeverse.  Seems Cochrane is the one who really founded the Empire with his attack on the Vulcan ship.

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I don't know.  Seems that up to First Contact history was going about like it did in the Primeverse.  Seems Cochrane is the one who really founded the Empire with his attack on the Vulcan ship.

I got the feeling (and just a feeling) that it started before then; we also see (in the alternate universe credits sequence) the familiar moon landing but with the Imperial flag.  

Besides, I'm pretty sure mirror-Cochrane didn't splinter the universes by spontaneously shooting the ambassador (who was a direct ancestor of Sarek and Spock, according to Memory Alpha).   Prime Cochrane probably wasn't packing a shotgun under his coat... :laugh:

I know there is no canon on exactly when it began, but I get the impression it happened before the era of warp flight (again, I have only non-canon sources to back this up, so it's really just a feeling...).

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One could argue that it always existed as a separate universe. The problem with that is that over human history, small changes in the past would increase the difference from our reality to a point that the mirror universe would be completely foreign. Maybe an ancient empire all but forgotten in our reality became much more prevalent in theirs. The changes should be cumulative over the centuries, but somehow the mirror universe seems to self correct and sticks close to our history.

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One could argue that it always existed as a separate universe. The problem with that is that over human history, small changes in the past would increase the difference from our reality to a point that the mirror universe would be completely foreign. Maybe an ancient empire all but forgotten in our reality became much more prevalent in theirs. The changes should be cumulative over the centuries, but somehow the mirror universe seems to self correct and sticks close to our history.

And that's probably the best theory yet; the mirror universe always existed.  It was never a divergence from our own reality, but always there.... 

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One could argue that it always existed as a separate universe. The problem with that is that over human history, small changes in the past would increase the difference from our reality to a point that the mirror universe would be completely foreign. Maybe an ancient empire all but forgotten in our reality became much more prevalent in theirs. The changes should be cumulative over the centuries, but somehow the mirror universe seems to self correct and sticks close to our history.

And that's probably the best theory yet; the mirror universe always existed.  It was never a divergence from our own reality, but always there.... 

That is the one I'd prefer. 

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One could argue that it always existed as a separate universe. The problem with that is that over human history, small changes in the past would increase the difference from our reality to a point that the mirror universe would be completely foreign. Maybe an ancient empire all but forgotten in our reality became much more prevalent in theirs. The changes should be cumulative over the centuries, but somehow the mirror universe seems to self correct and sticks close to our history.

And that's probably the best theory yet; the mirror universe always existed.  It was never a divergence from our own reality, but always there.... 

That is the one I'd prefer. 

Me too.

I'm not sure the Zefram Cochrane scene in ENT was meant to show a divergence into a new universe as much as it meant simply to show a different outcome by a different Cochrane.  If the divergence point were the First Contact event?  That means that prime Cochrane had a gun on him as well, and that shooting Solkar was always an option for him (!).   I kind of doubt that, or rather I hope not...

I guess I like my mirror universes neat and partitioned. :P

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I think that ENT opening was suggesting that it was an alternate reality with a divergence pointHowever, I think the mirror universe was always intended to be a separate, real universe, rather than being explained by a temporal fork-in-the-road. There are too many changes to go back to one event as the divergence point. There are also way too many similarities between the two universes for there not to be some kind of info exchange, somehow.

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I tend to think of the Mirror Universes as a bush. There are billions of Mirror universes out there and more are created all the time. Just some are easy to reach and some are difficult. The ones most similar are the easiest to reach. 

The Mirror Universe could have been created many times in U.S. history. Washington could have had himself king if he had wanted it. Lincoln had dictator powers during the Civil War.

The Universe we see split off and had a totally different history but for some odd stoke of chance the same groups of people were in the same place. So when Kirk and all moved to another universe, they moved into one where their counterparts were readily available. The other Mirror Universe where Kirk and Spock were dead was further away.  

 

 

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Keep in mind that the Enterprise episode also changed the credits showing a history of war and agression. Sure...kind of our histriy, but I thought of it as the wars all going a little differently maybe. 

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Keep in mind that the Enterprise episode also changed the credits showing a history of war and agression. Sure...kind of our histriy, but I thought of it as the wars all going a little differently maybe. 

I like the familiar shot of the spaceship in lunar orbit... only this time it was firing on the lunar colony.  :laugh:

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I tend to think of the Mirror Universes as a bush. There are billions of Mirror universes out there and more are created all the time. Just some are easy to reach and some are difficult. The ones most similar are the easiest to reach. 

The Mirror Universe could have been created many times in U.S. history. Washington could have had himself king if he had wanted it. Lincoln had dictator powers during the Civil War.

The Universe we see split off and had a totally different history but for some odd stoke of chance the same groups of people were in the same place. So when Kirk and all moved to another universe, they moved into one where their counterparts were readily available. The other Mirror Universe where Kirk and Spock were dead was further away.  

 

 

But that would make the mirror universe no different from the Enterprises in Parallels. In that episode, it's made clear that the break points were on major decisions. Picard is dead in many of them. I don't think this, temporal forks creating new universes, was the intention when the concept was introduced in TOS. 

This is one universe which is constant. There is something special about this universe in particular. It isn't like the multiverse honeycomb model you may have seen. Our universe and this mirror universe are identical twins and are directly connected somehow. Just how they are connected would be fascinating to explore... DS9 has several episodes and events develop in between those episodes. While characters from the two universes compare notes, they never come to a conclusion that event 'A' caused the mirror universe to spring into existence. 

 

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I'll have to work backward here, so bear with me: "In a Mirror, Darkly" shows that the Terran Empire has a technological base roughly on par with the universe portrayed in ENT, so to me that suggests that technological development proceeded at roughly the same level from First Contact to the time of the episode.  First Contact presented a lynchpin event in human history - in the prime universe, it forced humanity to delve deep and look at what it had become and what we as a species wanted to be, whereas in the MU it presented an easy opportunity to kill, acquire, and conquer. 

It's possible that in 2063 in the MU people were recovering from their own post-atomic horror, World War III, which ravaged the globe and killed billions.  In fact, WWIII might have been a defining event that broke the Terran Empire on Earth.  Empires are not always constants; rather, they are defined by period of ascendancy and destruction.  That means that prior to the mid-twenty-first century a Terran Empire probably existed on Earth, possibly for centuries, expanding across the globe as shown briefly in the credits.

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I tend to think of the Mirror Universes as a bush. There are billions of Mirror universes out there and more are created all the time. Just some are easy to reach and some are difficult. The ones most similar are the easiest to reach. 

The Mirror Universe could have been created many times in U.S. history. Washington could have had himself king if he had wanted it. Lincoln had dictator powers during the Civil War.

The Universe we see split off and had a totally different history but for some odd stoke of chance the same groups of people were in the same place. So when Kirk and all moved to another universe, they moved into one where their counterparts were readily available. The other Mirror Universe where Kirk and Spock were dead was further away.  

 

 

But that would make the mirror universe no different from the Enterprises in Parallels. In that episode, it's made clear that the break points were on major decisions. Picard is dead in many of them. I don't think this, temporal forks creating new universes, was the intention when the concept was introduced in TOS. 

This is one universe which is constant. There is something special about this universe in particular. It isn't like the multiverse honeycomb model you may have seen. Our universe and this mirror universe are identical twins and are directly connected somehow. Just how they are connected would be fascinating to explore... DS9 has several episodes and events develop in between those episodes. While characters from the two universes compare notes, they never come to a conclusion that event 'A' caused the mirror universe to spring into existence. 

 

Its the same phenomenon or something similar but the Mirror Universes that are to different aren't reachable. We can get to the Universe with the same people because that one is closest because it has the same people. 

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I'll have to work backward here, so bear with me: "In a Mirror, Darkly" shows that the Terran Empire has a technological base roughly on par with the universe portrayed in ENT, so to me that suggests that technological development proceeded at roughly the same level from First Contact to the time of the episode.  First Contact presented a lynchpin event in human history - in the prime universe, it forced humanity to delve deep and look at what it had become and what we as a species wanted to be, whereas in the MU it presented an easy opportunity to kill, acquire, and conquer. 

It's possible that in 2063 in the MU people were recovering from their own post-atomic horror, World War III, which ravaged the globe and killed billions.  In fact, WWIII might have been a defining event that broke the Terran Empire on Earth.  Empires are not always constants; rather, they are defined by period of ascendancy and destruction.  That means that prior to the mid-twenty-first century a Terran Empire probably existed on Earth, possibly for centuries, expanding across the globe as shown briefly in the credits.

But how would the Empire have come about in the first place?

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I'm currently writing my own history of the MU, with the earliest differences on Earth being during Alexander the Great's sack of Thebes, where he does not spare the life of Timoclea after she kills the soldier who raped her, and in 476 AD, when Odoacer, having defeated Romulus Augustulus, kills the boy instead of sparing his life out of pity. Still unsure how the Terran Empire comes about though.

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Mirror Phlox does state that, aside from Shakespeare, who is equally grim in both universes, many other authors' works are usually way more "weak and compassionate" in the Prime Universe, which tends to confirm that both have always been parallel, or at least diverged quite a while ago...

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Yes, the foundation of the Empire is not the actual point of divergence; things were already different long before then. Heck, the Dark Passions books had it that it wasn't just restricted to human history; the Klingons revered Molor instead of Kahless.

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