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Maltz

Eugenics Wars and World War III

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Maltz   

Back when TOS "Space Seed" aired, the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s was called the Third World War, but later on, Trek writers decided that WW3 was a different conflict fought some time in the mid-21st century. But even so, shouldn't that actually make the Third World War the FOURTH World War? Why wouldn't the Eugenics Wars be considered a world war when they fit the criteria?

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Back when TOS "Space Seed" aired, the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s was called the Third World War, but later on, Trek writers decided that WW3 was a different conflict fought some time in the mid-21st century. But even so, shouldn't that actually make the Third World War the FOURTH World War? Why wouldn't the Eugenics Wars be considered a world war when they fit the criteria?

I know, it's not canon, but several novel authors explained the Eugenics Wars as "wars behind the surface", reconciling them with real world events (like the Reeves-Stevens in "Prime Directive" or Greg Cox in "Rise and Fall of Khan Noonian Singh").

According to them, the Eugenics Wars were not huge armed conflicts, but in fact went by unnoticed by most contemporaries, as it was a battle behind the scenes. The augments had taken power behind the scenes in several states in the 90s, yet this was never known to the public until much later.

In contrast to that, WW3 indeed was a huge armed conflict that cost many lifes and destroyed many cities and countries.

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According to Riker in FC, 600 million died in WW3. I know Our world population is like 4-6 billion (can't recall exact) and who knows how much more it will be in 2053 when the war is supposed to take place, but that's still a massive amount when thinking on the global scale.

Ever notice that we never hear about or see cities like NYC or Washington D.C. mentioned or shown in Trek? I've always taken that to suggest they aren't there anymore. Remember the dome city off in the distance in The Cage where Pike says it's Mojave? Wonder if that is a result of LA getting nuked? 

France must have been neutral in the war, we see several times Paris is still fine (Federation HQ is there). 

Edited by John32070

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Sim   

According to Riker in FC, 600 million died in WW3. I know Our world population is like 4-6 billion (can't recall exact) and who knows how much more it will be in 2053 when the war is supposed to take place, but that's still a massive amount when thinking on the global scale.

Ever notice that we never hear about or see cities like NYC or Washington D.C. mentioned or shown in Trek? I've always taken that to suggest they aren't there anymore. Remember the dome city off in the distance in The Cage where Pike says it's Mojave? Wonder if that is a result of LA getting nuked? 

France must have been neutral in the war, we see several times Paris is still fine (Federation HQ is there). 

There have also been very few Germans on Star Trek. Maybe that means Germany was extremely decimated in WW3? ;)

At least there is the "New Berlin" colony on the Moon in FC (and another "New Berlin" on some distant planet in TNG "Descent"?), we see Mr. Jäger in TOS "Squire of Gothos" and the admiral in DS9 "The Maquis" apparently has a German wife. But apart from that ...

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Maltz   

I used to ascribe to the scenario in Greg Cox's novels, with a more quiet, low-key conflict, but after ENTERPRISE described it as having devastated the Earth with casualties in the tens of millions, I no longer feel it's all that tenable. Some more recent examples of Trek literary fiction have described the Eugenics Wars as more conventional, open warfare; there's the short story "The Rules of War" in Strange New Worlds 9, which details Jonathan Archer's great-great-grandfather's activities as a UN soldier in Northeast Africa during a mass invasion by the Augment Alliance. There's also the recent KHAN mini-series tie-in to STID, which depicts the Augments conquering nearly the entire world after making nuclear attacks on Washington and Moscow.

Interestingly, the novelization of FIRST CONTACT mentions Washington as getting nuked near the start of WW3. And one issue of Marvel's EARLY VOYAGES comic book series showed the city of New York still in existence in the 2250s (albeit with the World Trade Centre still standing, as the book was written and published several years prior to 9/11).

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The Eugenics Wars are a prime example of why I personally subscribe to 'pick-and-choose' continuity.   Personally I love the Greg Cox version of events, and believe that Spock simply erred when he described it as 'the last of your so-called world wars.'  Records of the 1990s were supposedly fragmentary in the 23rd century; it's possible that Spock meant to say the last 'world war' of the 20th century... 

According to Riker in FC, 600 million died in WW3. I know Our world population is like 4-6 billion (can't recall exact) and who knows how much more it will be in 2053 when the war is supposed to take place, but that's still a massive amount when thinking on the global scale.

Ever notice that we never hear about or see cities like NYC or Washington D.C. mentioned or shown in Trek? I've always taken that to suggest they aren't there anymore. Remember the dome city off in the distance in The Cage where Pike says it's Mojave? Wonder if that is a result of LA getting nuked? 

France must have been neutral in the war, we see several times Paris is still fine (Federation HQ is there). 

There have also been very few Germans on Star Trek. Maybe that means Germany was extremely decimated in WW3? ;)

At least there is the "New Berlin" colony on the Moon in FC (and another "New Berlin" on some distant planet in TNG "Descent"?), we see Mr. Jäger in TOS "Squire of Gothos" and the admiral in DS9 "The Maquis" apparently has a German wife. But apart from that ...

There was also director Kurt Mandl in TNG's "Home Soil."   Played by former Bond actor and native German, Walter Gotell.  

And what about the Hansens in VGR?  Their last name is certainly German-sounding, and they produced one lovely fraulein... ;)

1412348718042_wps_21_LONDON_ENGLAND_OCTO

 

I got your back, mein freund.... :laugh:

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Sim   

The Eugenics Wars are a prime example of why I personally subscribe to 'pick-and-choose' continuity.   Personally I love the Greg Cox version of events, and believe that Spock simply erred when he described it as 'the last of your so-called world wars.'  Records of the 1990s were supposedly fragmentary in the 23rd century; it's possible that Spock meant to say the last 'world war' of the 20th century... 

According to Riker in FC, 600 million died in WW3. I know Our world population is like 4-6 billion (can't recall exact) and who knows how much more it will be in 2053 when the war is supposed to take place, but that's still a massive amount when thinking on the global scale.

Ever notice that we never hear about or see cities like NYC or Washington D.C. mentioned or shown in Trek? I've always taken that to suggest they aren't there anymore. Remember the dome city off in the distance in The Cage where Pike says it's Mojave? Wonder if that is a result of LA getting nuked? 

France must have been neutral in the war, we see several times Paris is still fine (Federation HQ is there). 

There have also been very few Germans on Star Trek. Maybe that means Germany was extremely decimated in WW3? ;)

At least there is the "New Berlin" colony on the Moon in FC (and another "New Berlin" on some distant planet in TNG "Descent"?), we see Mr. Jäger in TOS "Squire of Gothos" and the admiral in DS9 "The Maquis" apparently has a German wife. But apart from that ...

There was also director Kurt Mandl in TNG's "Home Soil."   Played by former Bond actor and native German, Walter Gotell.  

And what about the Hansens in VGR?  Their last name is certainly German-sounding, and they produced one lovely fraulein... ;)

1412348718042_wps_21_LONDON_ENGLAND_OCTO

 

I got your back, mein freund.... :laugh:

Hahaha, you did! :)

Ah, I had no idea Mandl was supposed to be German... though now as you mention it, it makes sense. Did he have a German accent? As you can imagine, it's hard for me as a non-native speaker to identify accents ... let alone a slight German accent. :P I thought he was named after Mendel, the 19th century hobby biologist monk who did research on inheritence of genetic traits, peas and all that. IIRC, he was indeed German.

As for Hansen ... *could* be German, but it sounds more typically Skandinavian to me. I had assumed the Hansens were originally from Sweden or Norway...

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The Eugenics Wars are a prime example of why I personally subscribe to 'pick-and-choose' continuity.   Personally I love the Greg Cox version of events, and believe that Spock simply erred when he described it as 'the last of your so-called world wars.'  Records of the 1990s were supposedly fragmentary in the 23rd century; it's possible that Spock meant to say the last 'world war' of the 20th century... 

According to Riker in FC, 600 million died in WW3. I know Our world population is like 4-6 billion (can't recall exact) and who knows how much more it will be in 2053 when the war is supposed to take place, but that's still a massive amount when thinking on the global scale.

Ever notice that we never hear about or see cities like NYC or Washington D.C. mentioned or shown in Trek? I've always taken that to suggest they aren't there anymore. Remember the dome city off in the distance in The Cage where Pike says it's Mojave? Wonder if that is a result of LA getting nuked? 

France must have been neutral in the war, we see several times Paris is still fine (Federation HQ is there). 

There have also been very few Germans on Star Trek. Maybe that means Germany was extremely decimated in WW3? ;)

At least there is the "New Berlin" colony on the Moon in FC (and another "New Berlin" on some distant planet in TNG "Descent"?), we see Mr. Jäger in TOS "Squire of Gothos" and the admiral in DS9 "The Maquis" apparently has a German wife. But apart from that ...

There was also director Kurt Mandl in TNG's "Home Soil."   Played by former Bond actor and native German, Walter Gotell.  

And what about the Hansens in VGR?  Their last name is certainly German-sounding, and they produced one lovely fraulein... ;)

1412348718042_wps_21_LONDON_ENGLAND_OCTO

 

I got your back, mein freund.... :laugh:

Hahaha, you did! :)

Ah, I had no idea Mandl was supposed to be German... though now as you mention it, it makes sense. Did he have a German accent? As you can imagine, it's hard for me as a non-native speaker to identify accents ... let alone a slight German accent. :P I thought he was named after Mendel, the 19th century hobby biologist monk who did research on inheritence of genetic traits, peas and all that. IIRC, he was indeed German.

As for Hansen ... *could* be German, but it sounds more typically Skandinavian to me. I had assumed the Hansens were originally from Sweden or Norway...

That is true... Hansen is more generically Scandinavian, I suppose.  But Jeri Ryan herself was born to a US Army father and his wife stationed in Germany, I believe.  

Close enough, right?  :P

 

And yes, Mandl did have a slight German accent in the episode, but the actor (Gotell) is indeed German, and was famous for playing Bond movie Russian General Gogol. 

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This is one of those things I wish they got right. Between the show, movies, and novels - they seem to have this inconstant problem with the Eugenics War/WWIII. In VOY, when they were on Earth during the Eugenics War - no mention of it from anyone or any of the crew. Tuvok's biggest concern was the radiation from the sun...

I've never was big on the whole keeping it a secret cold war idea. Why? Because it didn't happen in our time line? Quark didn't land at Area 51 either... I think....

I also did wonder what the political landscape looked like post WWIII. Thanks to Chekov, we kind of know the USSR came back. Perhaps under Putin or a by product of an Augment?

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This is one of those things I wish they got right. Between the show, movies, and novels - they seem to have this inconstant problem with the Eugenics War/WWIII. In VOY, when they were on Earth during the Eugenics War - no mention of it from anyone or any of the crew. Tuvok's biggest concern was the radiation from the sun...

I've never was big on the whole keeping it a secret cold war idea. Why? Because it didn't happen in our time line? Quark didn't land at Area 51 either... I think....

I also did wonder what the political landscape looked like post WWIII. Thanks to Chekov, we kind of know the USSR came back. Perhaps under Putin or a by product of an Augment?

Did it, though?

The only indicator I saw of the former Soviet Union's return was that Petrograd was changed back to Leningrad ("The Voyage Home", "I, Mudd") but that was largely because those two installments were filmed before 1991 and the Soviet Union's collapse. :P

Maybe future Russians feel a sudden wave of nostalgia for the 20th century. :laugh:

 

***** SPOILERS FOR GREG COX'S EUGENICS WARS BOOKS AHEAD! ******

At any rate, I liked the elegance of the Eugenics Wars being this X-Files type 'secret cold war' in Greg Cox's books because it also ties in with some real-life disasters, such as the Bhopal disaster in India or nuclear bomb 'tests' that were actually that cold eugenics wars heating up.   Cox's books do a beautiful job lining up 'real' history with Star Trek history, including things like Chekov leaving his Klingon tech in FBI hands in 1986, or the Ferengi at Roswell in 1947 (which leads to the development of a top-secret spaceship at Area 51, later designated the Botany Bay!).  Cox's research was exhaustive, and it shows.  

For attempting to do the impossible (fusing ST with real-history), I accept Cox's books as my personal head canon for the Eugenics Wars.   They're not perfect, but they're as meticulous and exacting a reconciliation as ST fans are ever likely to get...

 

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Sim   

This is one of those things I wish they got right. Between the show, movies, and novels - they seem to have this inconstant problem with the Eugenics War/WWIII. In VOY, when they were on Earth during the Eugenics War - no mention of it from anyone or any of the crew. Tuvok's biggest concern was the radiation from the sun...

I've never was big on the whole keeping it a secret cold war idea. Why? Because it didn't happen in our time line? Quark didn't land at Area 51 either... I think....

I also did wonder what the political landscape looked like post WWIII. Thanks to Chekov, we kind of know the USSR came back. Perhaps under Putin or a by product of an Augment?

Did it, though?

The only indicator I saw of the former Soviet Union's return was that Petrograd was changed back to Leningrad ("The Voyage Home", "I, Mudd") but that was largely because those two installments were filmed before 1991 and the Soviet Union's collapse. :P

Maybe future Russians feel a sudden wave of nostalgia for the 20th century. :laugh:

 

***** SPOILERS FOR GREG COX'S EUGENICS WARS BOOKS AHEAD! ******

At any rate, I liked the elegance of the Eugenics Wars being this X-Files type 'secret cold war' in Greg Cox's books because it also ties in with some real-life disasters, such as the Bhopal disaster in India or nuclear bomb 'tests' that were actually that cold eugenics wars heating up.   Cox's books do a beautiful job lining up 'real' history with Star Trek history, including things like Chekov leaving his Klingon tech in FBI hands in 1986, or the Ferengi at Roswell in 1947 (which leads to the development of a top-secret spaceship at Area 51, later designated the Botany Bay!).  Cox's research was exhaustive, and it shows.  

For attempting to do the impossible (fusing ST with real-history), I accept Cox's books as my personal head canon for the Eugenics Wars.   They're not perfect, but they're as meticulous and exacting a reconciliation as ST fans are ever likely to get...

 

Re Cox novels: They're my head canon now, too. I was slightly disappointed that the Eugenics Wars weren't ... I dunno, more spectacular or so. But that doesn't change that Cox did a wonderful job. :)

As for fondness of Soviet symbols in post-USSR Russia:

That's starting among Russian nationalists these days already. Very strong nationalists, the type Putin gathered around him and gave him a lot of time on state tv in the past two years, and who showed up on the Kremlin-organized conferences with far-right extremists from EU countries, even those who hold far-right views, have no problem taking pride in Stalin, Soviet symbols of strength next to Tsarist symbols -- whatever symbolizes Russian strength is good enough. They're not commies, perhaps even hate communism, but it doesn't keep them from celebrating Stalin i.e. as great Russian hero who made the country strong, in the context of his time. Nationalistic myth-construction isn't picky. ;)

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Did it, though?

The only indicator I saw of the former Soviet Union's return was that Petrograd was changed back to Leningrad ("The Voyage Home", "I, Mudd") but that was largely because those two installments were filmed before 1991 and the Soviet Union's collapse. :P

Maybe future Russians feel a sudden wave of nostalgia for the 20th century. :laugh:

 

***** SPOILERS FOR GREG COX'S EUGENICS WARS BOOKS AHEAD! ******

At any rate, I liked the elegance of the Eugenics Wars being this X-Files type 'secret cold war' in Greg Cox's books because it also ties in with some real-life disasters, such as the Bhopal disaster in India or nuclear bomb 'tests' that were actually that cold eugenics wars heating up.   Cox's books do a beautiful job lining up 'real' history with Star Trek history, including things like Chekov leaving his Klingon tech in FBI hands in 1986, or the Ferengi at Roswell in 1947 (which leads to the development of a top-secret spaceship at Area 51, later designated the Botany Bay!).  Cox's research was exhaustive, and it shows.  

For attempting to do the impossible (fusing ST with real-history), I accept Cox's books as my personal head canon for the Eugenics Wars.   They're not perfect, but they're as meticulous and exacting a reconciliation as ST fans are ever likely to get...

 

I thought there was an actual mention of the USSR elsewhere?

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Union_of_Soviet_Socialist_Republics

In regards to Cox's book - I definitely agree that a lot of details were beautifully woven together from all the shows. I wish that amount of detail existed in the shows. If Cox had written ENT - I bet you the criticism of not adhering to canon would never exist.

I just find it implausible that all these super human beings were ruling swaths of the world...and no one knew. Khan was known as the like one of the most brilliant dictators in history. Just seems odd that everything is now underground. It's like watching the Clone Wars and finding out it was just robots and clones.... oh wait.

As for fondness of Soviet symbols in post-USSR Russia:

That's starting among Russian nationalists these days already. Very strong nationalists, the type Putin gathered around him and gave him a lot of time on state tv in the past two years, and who showed up on the Kremlin-organized conferences with far-right extremists from EU countries, even those who hold far-right views, have no problem taking pride in Stalin, Soviet symbols of strength next to Tsarist symbols -- whatever symbolizes Russian strength is good enough. They're not commies, perhaps even hate communism, but it doesn't keep them from celebrating Stalin i.e. as great Russian hero who made the country strong, in the context of his time. Nationalistic myth-construction isn't picky. ;)

Fair enough. It could just by symbolic on names and not an actual resurgence of the Soviet Union.

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Honestly, re: Cox, I can't believe that one man could rule from Asia to the Middle East "behind the scenes" in the Internet Age, and, if he could exert that much control I find it even more impossible that, after such a devastating conflict that TOS and FC allude to that there would be any records to survive to be used to ID Khan in the 23rd century.

I've just reconciled, From Voyager's "Future Tense's" airing that the timeline had been so corrupted by them, Sisko, Kirk, Picard, and that nonsensical Temporal Cold War, that none of it happened.

 

 

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Honestly, re: Cox, I can't believe that one man could rule from Asia to the Middle East "behind the scenes" in the Internet Age, and, if he could exert that much control I find it even more impossible that, after such a devastating conflict that TOS and FC allude to that there would be any records to survive to be used to ID Khan in the 23rd century.

I've just reconciled, From Voyager's "Future Tense's" airing that the timeline had been so corrupted by them, Sisko, Kirk, Picard, and that nonsensical Temporal Cold War, that none of it happened.

 

 

Or it was all pushed forward in time to become WW3....:ohmy:

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Honestly, re: Cox, I can't believe that one man could rule from Asia to the Middle East "behind the scenes" in the Internet Age, and, if he could exert that much control I find it even more impossible that, after such a devastating conflict that TOS and FC allude to that there would be any records to survive to be used to ID Khan in the 23rd century.

I've just reconciled, From Voyager's "Future Tense's" airing that the timeline had been so corrupted by them, Sisko, Kirk, Picard, and that nonsensical Temporal Cold War, that none of it happened.

 

 

Or it was all pushed forward in time to become WW3....:ohmy:

(Ominous music) duh-dun-dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

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Aesir   

I used the think WWIII and the Eugenics wars were the same thing. Later I heard that they were separate. Imo I think they should be separate with WWIII being a cataclysmic war that changed humanity's outlook on itself and the universe.

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Maltz   

What prevents Cox's interpretation of the Eugenics Wars (interesting as it is, I admit) from being valid, IMO, is the way it's described in ENT, e.g. Earth being devastated, casualties in the tens of millions. No one's going to be unaware/unconcerned about that; there would be a LOT of noticable damage.

I do find it interesting, though, that it seems as though 9/11 and the subsequent War on Terror and invasion of Iraq happened in the Trekverse as they did in the real world, as in ENT "Storm Front, Part 2", when proper history is being restored, footage of the World Trade Center on fire can be seen, along with Saddam Hussein and George Bush.

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What prevents Cox's interpretation of the Eugenics Wars (interesting as it is, I admit) from being valid, IMO, is the way it's described in ENT, e.g. Earth being devastated, casualties in the tens of millions. No one's going to be unaware/unconcerned about that; there would be a LOT of noticable damage.

I do find it interesting, though, that it seems as though 9/11 and the subsequent War on Terror and invasion of Iraq happened in the Trekverse as they did in the real world, as in ENT "Storm Front, Part 2", when proper history is being restored, footage of the World Trade Center on fire can be seen, along with Saddam Hussein and George Bush.

Yeah, ENT's interpretation of the event makes it sound more like the description of WW3 in "First Contact."  This is why I think that, maybe (?), the events were (perhaps due to some post-timeline contamination) one and the same now.

In "Return to Tomorrow" and "The Omega Glory" Kirk and Spock made references to the nuclear war Earth 'managed to avoid.'  In First Contact, it is clear we didn't.  

Yoda says it best, "Difficult to see.  Always in motion is the future..."

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Maltz   

I feel it's only fair to point out that, in Cox's novels, the Eugenics Wars aren't really "covert"; the people living under Khan's rule in India are aware of who he is; there are even public protests against him. And another augment addresses an assembly in the United Nations at one point. The general public in countries not directly affected by the wars simply weren't all that concerned about these people; they were just more warmongering nuts in a world already full of warmongering nuts.

Really, the biggest discrepancy between the books and the TV shows is the huge death toll mentioned in ENT, significantly more than in the books (although there are a lot of casualties there).

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30 minutes ago, Maltz said:

I feel it's only fair to point out that, in Cox's novels, the Eugenics Wars aren't really "covert"; the people living under Khan's rule in India are aware of who he is; there are even public protests against him. And another augment addresses an assembly in the United Nations at one point. The general public in countries not directly affected by the wars simply weren't all that concerned about these people; they were just more warmongering nuts in a world already full of warmongering nuts.

Really, the biggest discrepancy between the books and the TV shows is the huge death toll mentioned in ENT, significantly more than in the books (although there are a lot of casualties there).

Maybe more dead were accounted for later on...?

At any rate, they can't perfectly sync a fictitious history with the real thing, but I give Greg Cox serious kudos for even making the attempt; as well as producing a couple of really entertaining books on the subject in the process...

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scenario   

Maybe it was a war like the war on Isis but more widespread. There could have been a bunch of groups like Isis that were all under Khans control without anyone knowing it. Each one killed hundreds of thousands of people. They also let out plagues that killed millions but it wasn't proven until years later. The war went on for decades. Khan was a genus who was an important part of the movement at 6 years old and its leader in his teens.

He slowly replaced the leaders of countries like Russia one by one with puppets he controlled. He kept them fighting against his own people to keep up the facade but they never seemed to be able to kill anyone important.  

No one realized until near the end of his rule that there was only one person who controlled both thousands of small terrorist groups and many many governments. 

It wasn't considered a world war because there weren't two big armies fighting each other like WWII. It was more like thousands of small armies and a war of disinformation. 

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Sim   
42 minutes ago, scenario said:

Maybe it was a war like the war on Isis but more widespread. There could have been a bunch of groups like Isis that were all under Khans control without anyone knowing it. Each one killed hundreds of thousands of people. They also let out plagues that killed millions but it wasn't proven until years later. The war went on for decades. Khan was a genus who was an important part of the movement at 6 years old and its leader in his teens.

He slowly replaced the leaders of countries like Russia one by one with puppets he controlled. He kept them fighting against his own people to keep up the facade but they never seemed to be able to kill anyone important.  

No one realized until near the end of his rule that there was only one person who controlled both thousands of small terrorist groups and many many governments. 

It wasn't considered a world war because there weren't two big armies fighting each other like WWII. It was more like thousands of small armies and a war of disinformation. 

That's a great idea, and similar to what came to my mind when reading Cox's novels: IMO, these novels would have been even better, if he had gone even deeper down the conspiracy route -- why not find a behind the scenes explanation for real world events in the 80s, 90s and early 00s, that shows that they are all interconnected, as Khan and his augments are directly pulling the strings in the dark, without anybody noticing until much later?

 

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Maltz   

Greg couldn't really have tied things in with events in the 2000s, as Khan and his brethren are defeated by 1996.

On 24/03/2017 at 0:32 PM, Sehlat Vie said:

Maybe more dead were accounted for later on...?

 

How?

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3 minutes ago, Maltz said:

Greg couldn't really have tied things in with events in the 2000s, as Khan and his brethren are defeated by 1996.

How?

Don't know.... ask Greg Cox. ;)

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Maltz   

Regarding the 30-35 million death toll mentioned in ENT from historical records....how do we know those records are reliable? Dr Soong says at one point that very little is known for certain of the Eugenics Wars; some sources say different things. Perhaps later historians, biased against augments, exaggerated the extent of the carnage?

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