maneth

Which doctor's patient would you rather be?

Favorite Overall Trek Series/Movie  

206 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your overall favorite Star Trek series?

    • Star Trek: Enterprise
      16
    • Star Trek: The Original Series
      51
    • Star Trek: The Animated Series
      0
    • Star Trek: The Next Generation
      55
    • Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
      50
    • Star Trek: Voyager
      34
  2. 2. What is your overall favorite Star Trek movie?

    • Star Trek - I: The Motion Picture
      10
    • Star Trek - II: The Wrath of Khan
      41
    • Star Trek - III: The Search for Spock
      7
    • Star Trek - IV: The Voyage Home
      22
    • Star Trek - V: The Final Frontier
      4
    • Star Trek - VI: The Undiscovered Country
      29
    • Star Trek - VII: Generations
      11
    • Star Trek - VIII: First Contact
      64
    • Star Trek - IX: Insurrection
      7
    • Star Trek - X: Nemesis
      11


Recommended Posts

Bashir's.

He's the most intelligent of the bunch (save for the EMH, perhaps; but Bashir is infinitely more compassionate). He's also open-minded, and he's not an irascible racist either (sorry Bones, but it's true...).

I know a lot of middle-aged old farts like me generally don't trust younger doctors, but I don't mind any doctor as long as he/she knows their stuff. Age is irrelevant.

Pulaski would be my runner up because I like her personally; she's tough, frank, but understanding.

I get the irascible part for Bones but where is the racist part coming from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bashir's.

He's the most intelligent of the bunch (save for the EMH, perhaps; but Bashir is infinitely more compassionate). He's also open-minded, and he's not an irascible racist either (sorry Bones, but it's true...).

I know a lot of middle-aged old farts like me generally don't trust younger doctors, but I don't mind any doctor as long as he/she knows their stuff. Age is irrelevant.

Pulaski would be my runner up because I like her personally; she's tough, frank, but understanding.

I get the irascible part for Bones but where is the racist part coming from?

"How can you be deaf with ears like that?" "Pointy-eared, green-blooded, hobgoblin, elf, etc." "Now say if you beamed down with a pitchfork..." "Assuming you call that green ice water in your veins blood..." "You green-blooded, inhuman--" There are countless other examples.

He also makes constant references to humans being 'normal'... as if all the other aliens in the galaxy are somehow 'odd' for not being human somehow. I love McCoy as a character, but seriously; if I were a Vulcan? I wouldn't let him get within ten feet of me. If I caught a cold, I'd ask for Dr. M'Benga instead (the other doctor we saw in "Private Little War" & "That Which Survives").

(And fom TAS) "If only your blood were iron-based like a normal person's" (yes, he actually SAID that to Spock),

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bashir's.

He's the most intelligent of the bunch (save for the EMH, perhaps; but Bashir is infinitely more compassionate). He's also open-minded, and he's not an irascible racist either (sorry Bones, but it's true...).

I know a lot of middle-aged old farts like me generally don't trust younger doctors, but I don't mind any doctor as long as he/she knows their stuff. Age is irrelevant.

Pulaski would be my runner up because I like her personally; she's tough, frank, but understanding.

I get the irascible part for Bones but where is the racist part coming from?

"How can you be deaf with ears like that?" "Pointy-eared, green-blooded, hobgoblin, elf, etc." "Now say if you beamed down with a pitchfork..." "Assuming you call that green ice water in your veins blood..." "You green-blooded, inhuman--" There are countless other examples.

He also makes constant references to humans being 'normal'... as if all the other aliens in the galaxy are somehow 'odd' for not being human somehow. I love McCoy as a character, but seriously; if I were a Vulcan? I wouldn't let him get within ten feet of me. If I caught a cold, I'd ask for Dr. M'Benga instead (the other doctor we saw in "Private Little War" & "That Which Survives").

(And fom TAS) "If only your blood were iron-based like a normal person's" (yes, he actually SAID that to Spock),

I thought that might be what you were referring to - that wasn't racism that was baiting a friend that you care about but have deep philosophical disagreements with. I can also point to lines that show his caring for Spock and the ones that express admiration for Vulcans - like on Journey to Farpoint where he talks to Data. McCoy, as a healer, was fearful of the emotional suppression Spock was practicing and was concerned about his human half. He was constantly goading him trying to get those emotions released. Later on Spock actually heeded, in his own way, McCoy's advice and saw that logic alone would not make him whole. Besides, with GR would you think he would have one of his characters being racist?

As for the TAS comment I don't know the episode you are referring to (I have not watched them since I was a kid). As a physician he would say that. Spock was a hybrid. If his blood was all copper based or all iron based he wouldn't run into some medical problems. I don't believe McCoy was a racist, just an irascible country doctor and the one I would most want to treat me.

Oh, and most of those line were suppose to be comic relief in the episodes.

Edited by kc1966

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bashir's.

He's the most intelligent of the bunch (save for the EMH, perhaps; but Bashir is infinitely more compassionate). He's also open-minded, and he's not an irascible racist either (sorry Bones, but it's true...).

I know a lot of middle-aged old farts like me generally don't trust younger doctors, but I don't mind any doctor as long as he/she knows their stuff. Age is irrelevant.

Pulaski would be my runner up because I like her personally; she's tough, frank, but understanding.

I get the irascible part for Bones but where is the racist part coming from?

"How can you be deaf with ears like that?" "Pointy-eared, green-blooded, hobgoblin, elf, etc." "Now say if you beamed down with a pitchfork..." "Assuming you call that green ice water in your veins blood..." "You green-blooded, inhuman--" There are countless other examples.

He also makes constant references to humans being 'normal'... as if all the other aliens in the galaxy are somehow 'odd' for not being human somehow. I love McCoy as a character, but seriously; if I were a Vulcan? I wouldn't let him get within ten feet of me. If I caught a cold, I'd ask for Dr. M'Benga instead (the other doctor we saw in "Private Little War" & "That Which Survives").

(And fom TAS) "If only your blood were iron-based like a normal person's" (yes, he actually SAID that to Spock),

I thought that might be what you were referring to - that wasn't racism that was baiting a friend that you care about but have deep philosophical disagreements with. I can also point to lines that show his caring for Spock and the ones that express admiration for Vulcans - like on Journey to Farpoint where he talks to Data. McCoy, as a healer, was fearful of the emotional suppression Spock was practicing and was concerned about his human half. He was constantly goading him trying to get those emotions released. Later on Spock actually heeded, in his own way, McCoy's advice and saw that logic alone would not make him whole. Besides, with GR would you think he would have one of his characters being racist?

As for the TAS comment I don't know the episode you are referring to (I have not watched them since I was a kid). As a physician he would say that. Spock was a hybrid. If his blood was all copper based or all iron based he wouldn't run into some medical problems. I don't believe McCoy was a racist, just an irascible country doctor and the one I would most want to treat me.

Oh, and most of those line were suppose to be comic relief in the episodes.

Yes, they were comic relief then.... these days, it just smacks of racism. Times (and attitudes) change.

Suppose Spock were a black man, and McCoy chided him for his dark complexion? "Damn your increased melanin, you brown-skinned African!"

Not so funny now, is it?

And goading him into expressing emotion when McCoy KNOWS that emotion is a bit taboo in his culture would be equally offensive to a Vulcan. Imagine a culture that thought our taboos were equally 'odd' and made fun of us for having them ("Oh come on... sleep with your sister, you weirdo!"). Again, emotion is taboo to Vulcans; it's anathema to them. Yes, they feel it deep inside themselves, but for the 'good' of their civilization they've had to suppress it...

There was a great little show in the late '80s called ALIEN NATION which had a human cop named Sykes and his 'newcomer' alien partner George.

Sykes would always tease his 'buddy' and call him 'sponge head' and other 'harmless' epithets. In one episode, George finally has enough and slams Sykes against a wall after Sykes tells a 'harmless' racist joke about newcomers. Sykes reacts with indignation, saying "Other people call you that, why are you mad at ME?" To which George replies along the lines of, "Because you're better than they are. You're worth it." In other words, McCoy (and Sykes) was a good enough human, and a caring enough man, to know better. Sykes didn't use too many more epithets after that.

There was also a telling scene in "All Our Yesterdays" (one of my 3rd season favorites), where Spock, feeling emotion due to the effects of the Atavachron hurling him (emotionally) into the past, grabs McCoy by the neck after a typical epithet and says, "I don't like that! I don't think I ever did, and now I'm sure!"

That telling comment was McCoy's clue to knock it off; Spock, feeling real emotion at the time (thanks to the Atavachron), was finally able to let McCoy KNOW how he felt about his 'jests' on behalf of his race....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And this is an increasing problem I as a historian am running into - judging people's attitudes by today's standards. Using this method Abraham Lincoln would be a racist. And yet, for his time, he was an enlightened man who saw the dignity of the African-American.

Frankly, that type of humor goes on between friends all the time. For example, I have good working relationships with my students. I am also losing my hair. I get bald jokes all the time. Sometimes they are hurtful or overbearing but that does not mean these kids are "baldist" - it simply means they feel comfortable enough to joke about something even though it at times might be inappropriate or appear bad to an outsider. In Bread and Circuses Kirk is asked if the two are enemies and he tells the the individual who asked the question that he doesn't think even they are sure. Plus I seem to remember reading somewhere GR had the triumvirate as superego (Spock), id (McCoy), and ego (Kirk) and that Kirk was necessary to keep them in check as they were constantly in conflict (If you put stock in that old school psychology).

As to "All Our Yesterdays" Spock was reverting to a barbaric nature or suffering the effects of the time displacement that would have eventually killed them because they were not properly "prepared".

I think that you have to judge McCoy's comments in the context of how he treats other Vulcans - with respect and dignity. Do you see him making these types of comments to T'Pau or even T'Pring for example? Or to Sarak? No. And a racist attitude would show up in stressful situations such as "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel".

I guess this is just an area we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited by kc1966

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bashir's.

He's the most intelligent of the bunch (save for the EMH, perhaps; but Bashir is infinitely more compassionate). He's also open-minded, and he's not an irascible racist either (sorry Bones, but it's true...).

I know a lot of middle-aged old farts like me generally don't trust younger doctors, but I don't mind any doctor as long as he/she knows their stuff. Age is irrelevant.

Pulaski would be my runner up because I like her personally; she's tough, frank, but understanding.

I get the irascible part for Bones but where is the racist part coming from?

"How can you be deaf with ears like that?" "Pointy-eared, green-blooded, hobgoblin, elf, etc." "Now say if you beamed down with a pitchfork..." "Assuming you call that green ice water in your veins blood..." "You green-blooded, inhuman--" There are countless other examples.

He also makes constant references to humans being 'normal'... as if all the other aliens in the galaxy are somehow 'odd' for not being human somehow. I love McCoy as a character, but seriously; if I were a Vulcan? I wouldn't let him get within ten feet of me. If I caught a cold, I'd ask for Dr. M'Benga instead (the other doctor we saw in "Private Little War" & "That Which Survives").

(And fom TAS) "If only your blood were iron-based like a normal person's" (yes, he actually SAID that to Spock),

I thought that might be what you were referring to - that wasn't racism that was baiting a friend that you care about but have deep philosophical disagreements with. I can also point to lines that show his caring for Spock and the ones that express admiration for Vulcans - like on Journey to Farpoint where he talks to Data. McCoy, as a healer, was fearful of the emotional suppression Spock was practicing and was concerned about his human half. He was constantly goading him trying to get those emotions released. Later on Spock actually heeded, in his own way, McCoy's advice and saw that logic alone would not make him whole. Besides, with GR would you think he would have one of his characters being racist?

As for the TAS comment I don't know the episode you are referring to (I have not watched them since I was a kid). As a physician he would say that. Spock was a hybrid. If his blood was all copper based or all iron based he wouldn't run into some medical problems. I don't believe McCoy was a racist, just an irascible country doctor and the one I would most want to treat me.

Oh, and most of those line were suppose to be comic relief in the episodes.

Yes, they were comic relief then.... these days, it just smacks of racism. Times (and attitudes) change.

Suppose Spock were a black man, and McCoy chided him for his dark complexion? "Damn your increased melanin, you brown-skinned African!"

Not so funny now, is it?

And goading him into expressing emotion when McCoy KNOWS that emotion is a bit taboo in his culture would be equally offensive to a Vulcan. Imagine a culture that thought our taboos were equally 'odd' and made fun of us for having them ("Oh come on... sleep with your sister, you weirdo!"). Again, emotion is taboo to Vulcans; it's anathema to them. Yes, they feel it deep inside themselves, but for the 'good' of their civilization they've had to suppress it...

There was a great little show in the late '80s called ALIEN NATION which had a human cop named Sykes and his 'newcomer' alien partner George.

Sykes would always tease his 'buddy' and call him 'sponge head' and other 'harmless' epithets. In one episode, George finally has enough and slams Sykes against a wall after Sykes tells a 'harmless' racist joke about newcomers. Sykes reacts with indignation, saying "Other people call you that, why are you mad at ME?" To which George replies along the lines of, "Because you're better than they are. You're worth it." In other words, McCoy (and Sykes) was a good enough human, and a caring enough man, to know better. Sykes didn't use too many more epithets after that.

There was also a telling scene in "All Our Yesterdays" (one of my 3rd season favorites), where Spock, feeling emotion due to the effects of the Atavachron hurling him (emotionally) into the past, grabs McCoy by the neck after a typical epithet and says, "I don't like that! I don't think I ever did, and now I'm sure!"

That telling comment was McCoy's clue to knock it off; Spock, feeling real emotion at the time (thanks to the Atavachron), was finally able to let McCoy KNOW how he felt about his 'jests' on behalf of his race....

Yea I have to say...I see it less as racist and more as jabs between friends. Spock makes comments right back about humans and usually points them directly at McCoy. It is more friendly jibes at each other than racism. I've seen black and white friends that make friendly jibes about race that comes off no different than this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Friendly jabs at race are one thing, but sometimes with McCoy it could be more heated than that. "Bread and Circuses" for example; when he rips Spock a new one because he (seemingly) wasn't bellyaching over Kirk as McCoy was. "Why you wouldn't know what to do with a warm, decent feeling!" To which Spock OWNS him by saying (coolly), "Really, Doctor?"

As for Spock reacting with jabs at humans? Sure. Insults begat retaliation. Spock is cool, but not he's not entirely aloof or immune to his pride being wounded. He is, after all, half-human himself...

And this is an increasing problem I as a historian am running into - judging people's attitudes by today's standards. Using this method Abraham Lincoln would be a racist. And yet, for his time, he was an enlightened man who saw the dignity of the African-American.

Frankly, that type of humor goes on between friends all the time. For example, I have good working relationships with my students. I am also losing my hair. I get bald jokes all the time. Sometimes they are hurtful or overbearing but that does not mean these kids are "baldist" - it simply means they feel comfortable enough to joke about something even though it at times might be inappropriate or appear bad to an outsider. In Bread and Circuses Kirk is asked if the two are enemies and he tells the the individual who asked the question that he doesn't think even they are sure. Plus I seem to remember reading somewhere GR had the triumvirate as superego (Spock), id (McCoy), and ego (Kirk) and that Kirk was necessary to keep them in check as they were constantly in conflict (If you put stock in that old school psychology).

As to "All Our Yesterdays" Spock was reverting to a barbaric nature or suffering the effects of the time displacement that would have eventually killed them because they were not properly "prepared".

And think that you have to judge McCoy's comments in the context of how he treats other Vulcans - with respect and dignity. Do you see him making these types of comments to T.Pau or even T'Pring for example? Or to Sarak? No. And a racist attitude would show up in stressful situations such as "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel".

I guess this is just an area we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I've been overweight for much of my life, and I would hate it if someone I knew (especially a friend) kept calling me 'big guy' or whatnot. McCoy's trying to get a rise out of Spock (as well as the ENT crew trying to get a rise out of T'Pol) borders on obnoxious at times. Almost like the creep in school who'd poke at my stomach and would say, "Hey big guy!" If he only knew how badly I wanted to break off his fingers and shove them down his agape mouth...

Yes, I may very well be using today's attitudes over yesterdays' standards but a much simpler way to gauge it would be to put yourself on the receiving end of the insult and try it on (ever day, every year) for awhile. If that's the case, then I'm glad to live in a more enlightened age, to be honest. This is the age where we're recognizing that the 'joshing' (bullying) of my past wasn't a good thing, nor is it some traditional ritual that kids 'have' to go through. It's cruel and despicable behavior, and it has serious psychological consequences. And hearing it from 'friends' (like McCoy) makes it even worse, IMO.

If I knew someone had a strong taboo about something, I wouldn't be an ass and rub it in their face every chance I got. "What do you mean you're Hindu? Oh, eat a STEAK, will ya? Quit whining..." Again, it doesn't sound so funny when you take a real world example as a substitute for "Vulcan."

And I'm sorry, but I could never imagine a world where being called a 'pointy-eared hobgoblin' is ever OK. Spock has pointy ears. Deal. He even hears much better than we humans do. If anything, evolution gave his race many advantages. But McCoy continues to rile him as though it were some kind of unique birth defect. If I were Spock, I'd have probably sent McCoy on a nice little one-man cruise to the Delta Vega planetoid myself...

I like De Kelley (and his successor, Karl Urban) as they're both wonderful actors. And McCoy can be a charming character, but when he turns up the racist beam at Spock, it just feels like 'ol' country doctor' is code for 'unenlightened bigot.' Humans have (in ST's era) known Vulcans for a long time. You'd think the novelty of pointed ears and green blood would've worn off by then...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both sides are right. I do think McCoy isn't a racist or thinks he is superior to Spock. Clearly, McCoy would fight to save Spock and vice versa in a tense situation. Plus, as others pointed out, Spock seems to like striking back in the verbal sparring. I think the sparring makes McCoy think it is ok. However, his behavior is kind of bigoted in the lack of understanding.

However, I think Sehlat is right that McCoy (like MANY other human Starfleet officers) have this obnoxious bigoted attitude towards aliens (especially Vulcans). They seem to be the worst on the receiving end. T'Pol in ENT, Tuvok in VOY, and of course Spock in TOS. Tuvok even highlights this in that episode when he is on Sulu's ship. He tears into his bunkmate about how annoying Humans are and how they feel everyone should act like them. Then we all remember that scene with Harry Kim and Quark... or Bashir calling Bajor a "wilderness" to Kira's face.

Is it shocking that Tuvok's inner darkness has him fantasizing about killing Neelix? :P :P :P

The issue is that most Humans treat Vulcans like their emotionlessness is a result of them being sad, uptight, or something. Thus, the constant urge to want to make them smile or dance. But they are not sad or just uptight middle management bosses at the office. It is a cultural/social thing for them. It is their history. They nearly destroyed themselves and this solution is literally what saved them. Sehlat had the perfect analogy, it would be like me constantly trying to force a Hindu to eat a piece of steak and telling them to lighten up when they resisted. The humans in Trek really do act out obnoxiously.

Most Vulcans would probably not want to be McCoy's patient for that reason or Bashir because of his constant talking. Or the EMH for his smug attitude. They'd all choose Suzie Plankston's Vulcan doctor character on the ENT-D. :P :P :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both sides are right. I do think McCoy isn't a racist or thinks he is superior to Spock. Clearly, McCoy would fight to save Spock and vice versa in a tense situation. Plus, as others pointed out, Spock seems to like striking back in the verbal sparring. I think the sparring makes McCoy think it is ok. However, his behavior is kind of bigoted in the lack of understanding.

However, I think Sehlat is right that McCoy (like MANY other human Starfleet officers) have this obnoxious bigoted attitude towards aliens (especially Vulcans). They seem to be the worst on the receiving end. T'Pol in ENT, Tuvok in VOY, and of course Spock in TOS. Tuvok even highlights this in that episode when he is on Sulu's ship. He tears into his bunkmate about how annoying Humans are and how they feel everyone should act like them. Then we all remember that scene with Harry Kim and Quark... or Bashir calling Bajor a "wilderness" to Kira's face.

Is it shocking that Tuvok's inner darkness has him fantasizing about killing Neelix? :P :P :P

The issue is that most Humans treat Vulcans like their emotionlessness is a result of them being sad, uptight, or something. Thus, the constant urge to want to make them smile or dance. But they are not sad or just uptight middle management bosses at the office. It is a cultural/social thing for them. It is their history. They nearly destroyed themselves and this solution is literally what saved them. Sehlat had the perfect analogy, it would be like me constantly trying to force a Hindu to eat a piece of steak and telling them to lighten up when they resisted. The humans in Trek really do act out obnoxiously.

Most Vulcans would probably not want to be McCoy's patient for that reason or Bashir because of his constant talking. Or the EMH for his smug attitude. They'd all choose Suzie Plankston's Vulcan doctor character on the ENT-D. :P :P :P

I agree that I don't think McCoy consciously believes he is racist.

However, that is when racism is most dangerous (and pervasive); when one does it out of habit, upbringing or culture and then simply shrugs it off as 'just kidding' or some other misnomer. I'm glad that I live in a time when we've come to recognize and address the irresponsibility of such continued 'kidding' or 'horseplay.'

As for whose patient I'd like to be? I'll stick with Bashir.

He's bright, openminded and I like chatting, so his talkative nature wouldn't bother me a bit.

The issue is that most Humans treat Vulcans like their emotionlessness is a result of them being sad, uptight, or something. Thus, the constant urge to want to make them smile or dance. But they are not sad or just uptight middle management bosses at the office. It is a cultural/social thing for them. It is their history. They nearly destroyed themselves and this solution is literally what saved them. Sehlat had the perfect analogy, it would be like me constantly trying to force a Hindu to eat a piece of steak and telling them to lighten up when they resisted. The humans in Trek really do act out obnoxiously.

^

So very this!

Maybe it's the part of me that's always related to Spock (esp. as a kid) that I tend to take the Vulcan's side on this, but this paragraph was particularly well-said, Founder (as was the rest of your typically thoughtful post, but this was spot on).

What people don't realize is that Vulcans find emotion shocking and disturbing because of their racial memory; it nearly wiped them out. It's like humans getting rid of slavery; we may practice it in small, barbaric enclaves of our world today, but generally speaking it's a disavowed behavior for most civilized people. That is how I think Vulcans view emotion; a bad behavior that tarnishes them all.

Whether I agree or not personally is immaterial; that is their culture and their belief. It harms no one else, and it is uniquely theirs. Why is it so hard to try to respect that? If I were talking to a Vulcan, I would probably do my best to suppress my own emotions; so as not to cause offense. The same way I don't order rare steak when my wife and I go out to eat with our Hindu friends. They know we eat meat, but that's no reason to shove it in their faces...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to forget, they are Vulcan, they have no ego to bruise.

But as McCoy, in a moment of compassion, said to Spock (in The Tholian Web), "It does hurt, doesn't it?"

That was one of the times McCoy rocked for me; when he stopped jabbing at Spock and recognized the wounded, conflicted being underneath the cool veneer. In fact, I think that "The Tholian Web" was one of my favorites for the Spock/McCoy relationship. Especially when Spock accepted McCoy's apology for losing his temper, "I'm sure the captain would simply have said, 'forget it, Bones'."

That one still chokes me up a bit...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I don't know. In some Western hospitals they're actually using maggots (fly larvae) to stop gangrene developing in infected wounds.

disgusted014.gif

It's old medicine, but it works. All they do is get rid of the dead flesh while leaving the undamaged stuff alone. In an age where things are rapidly evolving to counteract our antibiotics it's good to know some ofm the old ways still have a use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I don't know. In some Western hospitals they're actually using maggots (fly larvae) to stop gangrene developing in infected wounds.

disgusted014.gif

It's old medicine, but it works. All they do is get rid of the dead flesh while leaving the undamaged stuff alone. In an age where things are rapidly evolving to counteract our antibiotics it's good to know some ofm the old ways still have a use.

Good point...

giphy.gif

Antibiotics are producing far more resistant and tenacious strains than might've existed in nature without our 'assistance.'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both sides are right. I do think McCoy isn't a racist or thinks he is superior to Spock. Clearly, McCoy would fight to save Spock and vice versa in a tense situation. Plus, as others pointed out, Spock seems to like striking back in the verbal sparring. I think the sparring makes McCoy think it is ok. However, his behavior is kind of bigoted in the lack of understanding.

However, I think Sehlat is right that McCoy (like MANY other human Starfleet officers) have this obnoxious bigoted attitude towards aliens (especially Vulcans). They seem to be the worst on the receiving end. T'Pol in ENT, Tuvok in VOY, and of course Spock in TOS. Tuvok even highlights this in that episode when he is on Sulu's ship. He tears into his bunkmate about how annoying Humans are and how they feel everyone should act like them. Then we all remember that scene with Harry Kim and Quark... or Bashir calling Bajor a "wilderness" to Kira's face.

Is it shocking that Tuvok's inner darkness has him fantasizing about killing Neelix? :P :P :P

The issue is that most Humans treat Vulcans like their emotionlessness is a result of them being sad, uptight, or something. Thus, the constant urge to want to make them smile or dance. But they are not sad or just uptight middle management bosses at the office. It is a cultural/social thing for them. It is their history. They nearly destroyed themselves and this solution is literally what saved them. Sehlat had the perfect analogy, it would be like me constantly trying to force a Hindu to eat a piece of steak and telling them to lighten up when they resisted. The humans in Trek really do act out obnoxiously.

Most Vulcans would probably not want to be McCoy's patient for that reason or Bashir because of his constant talking. Or the EMH for his smug attitude. They'd all choose Suzie Plankston's Vulcan doctor character on the ENT-D. :P :P :P

The Founder is wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both sides are right. I do think McCoy isn't a racist or thinks he is superior to Spock. Clearly, McCoy would fight to save Spock and vice versa in a tense situation. Plus, as others pointed out, Spock seems to like striking back in the verbal sparring. I think the sparring makes McCoy think it is ok. However, his behavior is kind of bigoted in the lack of understanding.

However, I think Sehlat is right that McCoy (like MANY other human Starfleet officers) have this obnoxious bigoted attitude towards aliens (especially Vulcans). They seem to be the worst on the receiving end. T'Pol in ENT, Tuvok in VOY, and of course Spock in TOS. Tuvok even highlights this in that episode when he is on Sulu's ship. He tears into his bunkmate about how annoying Humans are and how they feel everyone should act like them. Then we all remember that scene with Harry Kim and Quark... or Bashir calling Bajor a "wilderness" to Kira's face.

Is it shocking that Tuvok's inner darkness has him fantasizing about killing Neelix? :P :P :P

The issue is that most Humans treat Vulcans like their emotionlessness is a result of them being sad, uptight, or something. Thus, the constant urge to want to make them smile or dance. But they are not sad or just uptight middle management bosses at the office. It is a cultural/social thing for them. It is their history. They nearly destroyed themselves and this solution is literally what saved them. Sehlat had the perfect analogy, it would be like me constantly trying to force a Hindu to eat a piece of steak and telling them to lighten up when they resisted. The humans in Trek really do act out obnoxiously.

Most Vulcans would probably not want to be McCoy's patient for that reason or Bashir because of his constant talking. Or the EMH for his smug attitude. They'd all choose Suzie Plankston's Vulcan doctor character on the ENT-D. :P :P :P

The Founder is wise.

He does that.... :laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both sides are right. I do think McCoy isn't a racist or thinks he is superior to Spock. Clearly, McCoy would fight to save Spock and vice versa in a tense situation. Plus, as others pointed out, Spock seems to like striking back in the verbal sparring. I think the sparring makes McCoy think it is ok. However, his behavior is kind of bigoted in the lack of understanding.

However, I think Sehlat is right that McCoy (like MANY other human Starfleet officers) have this obnoxious bigoted attitude towards aliens (especially Vulcans). They seem to be the worst on the receiving end. T'Pol in ENT, Tuvok in VOY, and of course Spock in TOS. Tuvok even highlights this in that episode when he is on Sulu's ship. He tears into his bunkmate about how annoying Humans are and how they feel everyone should act like them. Then we all remember that scene with Harry Kim and Quark... or Bashir calling Bajor a "wilderness" to Kira's face.

Is it shocking that Tuvok's inner darkness has him fantasizing about killing Neelix? :P :P :P

The issue is that most Humans treat Vulcans like their emotionlessness is a result of them being sad, uptight, or something. Thus, the constant urge to want to make them smile or dance. But they are not sad or just uptight middle management bosses at the office. It is a cultural/social thing for them. It is their history. They nearly destroyed themselves and this solution is literally what saved them. Sehlat had the perfect analogy, it would be like me constantly trying to force a Hindu to eat a piece of steak and telling them to lighten up when they resisted. The humans in Trek really do act out obnoxiously.

Most Vulcans would probably not want to be McCoy's patient for that reason or Bashir because of his constant talking. Or the EMH for his smug attitude. They'd all choose Suzie Plankston's Vulcan doctor character on the ENT-D. :P :P :P

The Founder is wise.

This -- Agree with both of you!

Also with the "judging by today's standards" argument. We often tend to do that, forgetting that sometimes, it were just these less enlightened attitudes that paved the way for the progress we're enjoying today... or that it didn't come over night, at least. And TOS *is* a series from the 60s. When it started airing, African Americans didn't even enjoy full civil rights, IIRC.

Today, it's more or less mainstream to be very cautious about racism, sexism or other "politically incorrect" behavior -- we hear examples of that every day, ever since we were children. You don't risk anything by pointing it out. You are swimming with the stream by doing so. But only 100 or 50 years ago, it was just as much mainstream to consider whites superior to blacks, to be anti-Semitic and to treat adult women like children. To speak up against any of that back then, you didn't just need a kind of insight, reflection or education the majority was missing (it wasn't laid into their cradles like for most of us), you also needed a lot of courage, because people would shrug you off as a weirdo at best, attack you at worst.

Not trying to turn this into a KM topic, but that's one of the many problems I see with many anti-religion attacks: Some people blame religion for everything bad that happened under the watch of a given religion in the past millennia, judging from a 21st century morality, as if enlightened secularism had ever been the alternative. It never was, historically.

So, from this POV, I can easily forgive McCoy. He's a Southener from the 60s, after all, but has his heart in the right place. ;) In the end, it's obvious he has the greatest respect for Spock.

My first choice is Bashir, too. He has the right mix of competence, a very caring character and is perhaps great fun having a chat with, too.

Phlox is a close second. I love his enthusiasm about cultures that are alien to him. And eels notwithstanding, he's apparently competent as well.

McCoy perhaps doesn't lecture his patients about their drinking habits. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first choice is Bashir. Caring and competent.

I think that Bones does have a touch or more than a touch of racism in him. He thinks he's joking but some of his comments are over the line. Some may be real medical concerns said in a very poor manner. Spock is half human/half Vulcan. Suppressing his emotions is appropriate for the Vulcan half but I'm not as sure about the Human half. When he says Spock isn't normal, he's right in one sense. He is a hybrid of two different species from two different planets. Biologically, he is not a typical Vulcan or Human. He is unique.

Bones is a creation on the 60's. He clearly respects Spock and that is a step up from most southern characters of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first choice is Bashir. Caring and competent.

I think that Bones does have a touch or more than a touch of racism in him. He thinks he's joking but some of his comments are over the line. Some may be real medical concerns said in a very poor manner. Spock is half human/half Vulcan. Suppressing his emotions is appropriate for the Vulcan half but I'm not as sure about the Human half. When he says Spock isn't normal, he's right in one sense. He is a hybrid of two different species from two different planets. Biologically, he is not a typical Vulcan or Human. He is unique.

Bones is a creation on the 60's. He clearly respects Spock and that is a step up from most southern characters of the time.

And that's one of the reasons I don't actively hate McCoy; part of it is De Kelley's immeasurable charm of course (he oozes charm; even if he played Satan I'd probably love him), but it's also that McCoy really does love Spock in his own way.

But his lack of understanding with Spock and his culture just grates on me sometimes. Sometimes it's just 'kidding' of course (which isn't really an excuse) but other times it's done with such venom ("Bread & Circuses") that I cringe a bit when I watch them sometimes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why has no one chosen the EMH from the Equinox?

Or perhaps Andy Dick's EMH from the Prometheus?

Or the smartass LMH of Bashir?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why has no one chosen Andy Dick's EMH from the Prometheus?

Because I loathe Andy Dick... :P

I'd sooner have the Manson babysit my kids than I'd have Andy Dick do surgery on my body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first choice is Bashir. Caring and competent.

I think that Bones does have a touch or more than a touch of racism in him. He thinks he's joking but some of his comments are over the line. Some may be real medical concerns said in a very poor manner. Spock is half human/half Vulcan. Suppressing his emotions is appropriate for the Vulcan half but I'm not as sure about the Human half. When he says Spock isn't normal, he's right in one sense. He is a hybrid of two different species from two different planets. Biologically, he is not a typical Vulcan or Human. He is unique.

Bones is a creation on the 60's. He clearly respects Spock and that is a step up from most southern characters of the time.

And that's one of the reasons I don't actively hate McCoy; part of it is De Kelley's immeasurable charm of course (he oozes charm; even if he played Satan I'd probably love him), but it's also that McCoy really does love Spock in his own way.

But his lack of understanding with Spock and his culture just grates on me sometimes. Sometimes it's just 'kidding' of course (which isn't really an excuse) but other times it's done with such venom ("Bread & Circuses") that I cringe a bit when I watch them sometimes...

I agree about many of McCoy's comments being cringe worthy. Just kidding is a poor excuse but this type of insult kidding is a common male bonding ritual. At least in the U.S. And the Enterprise at that time does seem to have a pseudo-military culture where macho nonsense tend to occur frequently.

I'm on the fence about lack of understanding about Spock's culture. Spock is half Human/Half Vulcan. The differences between Humans and Vulcans are both cultural and biological. If there is something in Spock Vulcan culture that is harmless to a Vulcan but could kill a Human, McCoy has a right to be concerned. Vulcan is a much hotter planet than Earth. Say there is a ritual that must be done in a desert where the temperature is 60 degrees Celsius (140 degrees Fahrenheit) it may be uncomfortable to a Vulcan but it could easily kill a Human. Perhaps McCoy thinks that Spock suppressing his emotions is putting such stress on Spock that it could cut his life expectancy by 1/3. He's tried to talk to Spock about it but Spock blows him off and tells him not to tell anyone. Because he cares about Spock as a friend he is acting in a passive aggressive manner to try to change Spock's mind.

Total speculation, but McCoy does seem to feel that Spock suppression of his emotions isn't good for him. Maybe he has medical proof but Spock refuses to listen. Doctor patient confidentiality means that McCoy would have to stay silent if it doesn't affect Spock's performance on the ship. If the problems he's thinking about won't happen for 50 years, his hands are tied. If a persons culture says that they must smoke two packs of cigarettes a day, most doctors would not support that culture.

Edited by scenario

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The McCoy racism talk has me reminded of the Savage Curtain, when Uhura eesponding to the Negress comment by Lincoln by saying "why would I be upset about words?" Or something like that. I see it as they've evolved beyond the getting hurt by words stage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The McCoy racism talk has me reminded of the Savage Curtain, when Uhura eesponding to the Negress comment by Lincoln by saying "why would I be upset about words?" Or something like that. I see it as they've evolved beyond the getting hurt by words stage.

Good point. What's true equality? When every ethnic group is equally proud of who they are and where they came from, or when society is so colorblind that nobody asks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this doctor treating us like for a Star Trek caused thing, or are we in an idealized state possibly? Or what?

 

Cause irl I make Worf's spinal injury look like a picnic. I'd have to say Bashir if I were still gimpy, cause he probably would be kind enough NOT to touch my lower back, at least without like cause or pain relief or something, and probably would be committed to helping me. If I were not gimpy, I dunno... EMH or Bashir.... it's hard to say. EMH is quirky, and I am quirky, too, but I still like Bashir.

But Bashir still has that streak of arrogance, even in the last season there were little amounts of it here and there... 5th season Bashir though, lol. Everyone keeps citing that season of him, hahaha. They have a good point, but that is like, wow, for a single year he wasn't a jerk about things... Bashir... yeah I'd go with him.

 

I love how they developed these characters so well, strengths and flaws, annoyances and awesomeness...eses....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this doctor treating us like for a Star Trek caused thing, or are we in an idealized state possibly? Or what?

 

Cause irl I make Worf's spinal injury look like a picnic. I'd have to say Bashir if I were still gimpy, cause he probably would be kind enough NOT to touch my lower back, at least without like cause or pain relief or something, and probably would be committed to helping me. If I were not gimpy, I dunno... EMH or Bashir.... it's hard to say. EMH is quirky, and I am quirky, too, but I still like Bashir.

But Bashir still has that streak of arrogance, even in the last season there were little amounts of it here and there... 5th season Bashir though, lol. Everyone keeps citing that season of him, hahaha. They have a good point, but that is like, wow, for a single year he wasn't a jerk about things... Bashir... yeah I'd go with him.

 

I love how they developed these characters so well, strengths and flaws, annoyances and awesomeness...eses....

Bashir is my choice as well; yes, he can seem arrogant, but I believe that's just a humorous veneer to mask just how much he truly cares for his patients.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites