Sign in to follow this  
GenesisDevice

Janeway and Paris' lizard babies

Recommended Posts

Yes, T'Pol on Enterprise suffered through Ponn Farr, which is yet ANOTHER canon violation due to the sloppiness of that era.

T'Pol having Ponn Farr is like a guy having cramps.

The mind meld with T'Pring and Spock was a marriage. Yes. It linked them together, but the biology of it was not related to Ponn Farr. Logically, if that link was related to Ponn Farr, the T'Pring would have been suffering too, and she was not. Also logically, if that mind meld was related to Ponn Farr, then in Star Trek III, then Spock wouldn't have gone through Ponn Farr without that link.

There is a direct line of dialogue in Star Trek III that limits Ponn Farr to MALES. Braga and Berman clearly didn't do their homework.

Back in 1997, when this episode aired, a poster on another board wrote a very good break down as to why this episode was so screwed up. Fortunately, I saved it, and it's on this computer:

1) If Pon Farr could be controlled through meditation, don't you think
Spock would have tried that? There IS no control. The Pon Farr rips it away.

2) The koon-ut-kal-if-fee is a ritual akin to divorce. The coupling of
Spock and T'Pring was "less than a marriage, but more than a betrothal,"
as he put it, and so the only way she could end their relationship was
through ritual combat between Spock and a champion of her choosing.

3) The koon-ut-kal-if-fe is also, by definition, a fight to the death.
When Kirk and Spock fought, Kirk "died," and it was not the resolution of
the battle, but the enormous grief Spock felt which cancelled his mating
urge. Had it been Stonn he killed, the marriage would have proceeded as
planned.

4) Once chosen, a champion cannot decline the battle, unless he is an
outsider. Paris was therefore free to decline, but Torres was not free to
take his place unless Vorick named her as his champion. And why would he
do that, if she was his prospective mate?

5) Only the females would be likely to demand the combat ritual, and only
as a means to divorce, because the males (under the effects of Pon Farr)
are too driven to consummate the mating process uninterrupted. There is no
precedent which says that Vulcan women can't also battle each other to the
death (at the male's request), but it seems contradictory given the natural
order of the animal kingdom where, among all other mammals, it is usually
only the males who fight each other in order to procreate.

6) It is ridiculous to suggest that Vorick could have transmitted the
Pon Farr to Torres through a mind meld, intentional or not. The Ponn Farr
is a physical, not a mental, phenomenon. The mating urge is in the body,
not the brain. The most that Vorick could have transmitted to Torres is an
awareness of what he was feeling emotionally. But how could those emotions
have accelerated the production of HER hormones? It's biologically absurd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, we are SOOOO off-topic on this one.

I'm half-tempted to open a new thread about Vulcan physiology...

Well, you're the moderator. You want to table it, or just roll with it? We all seem to agree that Threshold sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, we are SOOOO off-topic on this one.

I'm half-tempted to open a new thread about Vulcan physiology...

Well, you're the moderator. You want to table it, or just roll with it? We all seem to agree that Threshold sucks.

Yes, and I thank you NOT to tell me how to moderate.

No more on this in this thread. It's gotten way too off-topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't telling you how to moderate. I was asking you what you would like to do. Now that you answered the question, there will be no more on this in this thread from me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I will say about the off-topic here now is that that "saved post" has plenty of its own holes. It has plenty of its own holes in logic, and plenty created by what was seen on screen, so it's hardly definitive.

BoT:

Lizard babies are stupid. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I will say about the off-topic here now is that that "saved post" has plenty of its own holes. It has plenty of its own holes in logic, and plenty created by what was seen on screen, so it's hardly definitive.

BoT:

Lizard babies are stupid. :)

Yes, they are.

And "Threshold" disappoints profoundly because it started with such a good premise (the warp 10 stuff) but so quickly went to hell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I will say about the off-topic here now is that that "saved post" has plenty of its own holes. It has plenty of its own holes in logic, and plenty created by what was seen on screen, so it's hardly definitive.

BoT:

Lizard babies are stupid. :)

Yes, they are.

And "Threshold" disappoints profoundly because it started with such a good premise (the warp 10 stuff) but so quickly went to hell.

I mean, tyou know going in that at 1/3 of the way through season 2 a warp 10 experiment going to fail because that's how it works, but the method of that failure is so painfully stupid and so rife with contempt for the audience in its own way it's the worst hour of Trek there is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sim   

Back to lizard babies.... anyone? :giggle:

Did I mention already that I give B&B *some* credit for the guts they have, presenting the audience with such an unspeakable utter crap? I mean, such a thing can't happen accidentally. That makes it *almost* commendable ... almost. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to lizard babies.... anyone? :giggle:

Did I mention already that I give B&B *some* credit for the guts they have, presenting the audience with such an unspeakable utter crap? I mean, such a thing can't happen accidentally. That makes it *almost* commendable ... almost. ;)

Then again, there's always space hippies... ;)

I'd love to make a "Way To Eden/Threshold" fanfic where the space hippies hit warp 10 by accidentally overtaxing the Aurora's engines...

lizard-king.jpg

Ooops..... :giggle:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sim   

Back to lizard babies.... anyone? :giggle:

Did I mention already that I give B&B *some* credit for the guts they have, presenting the audience with such an unspeakable utter crap? I mean, such a thing can't happen accidentally. That makes it *almost* commendable ... almost. ;)

Then again, there's always space hippies... ;)

I'd love to make a "Way To Eden/Threshold" fanfic where the space hippies hit warp 10 by accidentally overtaxing the Aurora's engines...

lizard-king.jpg

Ooops..... :giggle:

lol ...

Well, I could be wrong, but my guess is that space hippies were a much more reasonable idea in 1968 than they appear in retrospect today... :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to lizard babies.... anyone? :giggle:

Did I mention already that I give B&B *some* credit for the guts they have, presenting the audience with such an unspeakable utter crap? I mean, such a thing can't happen accidentally. That makes it *almost* commendable ... almost. ;)

Then again, there's always space hippies... ;)

I'd love to make a "Way To Eden/Threshold" fanfic where the space hippies hit warp 10 by accidentally overtaxing the Aurora's engines...

lizard-king.jpg

Ooops..... :giggle:

lol ...

Well, I could be wrong, but my guess is that space hippies were a much more reasonable idea in 1968 than they appear in retrospect today... :P

I must admit that I prefer them to stranded lizard babies.... :giggle:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I kinda think Tom looked quite good with his lizard makeup. Before he transformed into a full-blown warp 10 iguana, I mean. They should've kept him that way for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammer   

Why would they leave the lizard babies behind on the planet (in their natural habitat?! since when...) when they knew how to reverse the effects? That was just another problem with this episode. I wish the rest of this episode wasn't such a tire fire, because Warp 10 is an interesting concept to explore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would they leave the lizard babies behind on the planet (in their natural habitat?! since when...) when they knew how to reverse the effects? That was just another problem with this episode. I wish the rest of this episode wasn't such a tire fire, because Warp 10 is an interesting concept to explore.

The lizard form was arguably the natural state of the....tadpoles...so there's nothing to treat. That said, there's really no justification for leaving them there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming soon: Threshold II: Revenge of the Lizard Babies

komodo-dragon-picture.jpg

the37s255.jpg

"Kids? I'm back, and I can explain everything..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammer   

If they had tried to do the same thing to reverse the effect on the babies, would they have become human babies?

That's what I thought when I watched the episode. It was still human DNA, albeit altered. It's hard to fathom that the writers and producers couldn't see how weird this episode would be on paper, you know, before they shot it. Was it one of those situations where they ran out of time for a deadline and just submitted what they had?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish we had seen Tom awkwardly tell Torres he had children with Janeway.

Is this thread still about lizard babies and that terrible Threshold episode, or has it deteriorated into another bash Voyager thread?

tumblr_mm5uh7hWKn1r5xzspo1_500.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish we had seen Tom awkwardly tell Torres he had children with Janeway.

Is this thread still about lizard babies and that terrible Threshold episode, or has it deteriorated into another bash Voyager thread?

tumblr_mm5uh7hWKn1r5xzspo1_500.gif

Not here. :)

And not tell her he had "children" with...lizards... or guppies, whichever one would blow her mind more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammer   

I wish we had seen Tom awkwardly tell Torres he had children with Janeway.

Is this thread still about lizard babies and that terrible Threshold episode, or has it deteriorated into another bash Voyager thread?

tumblr_mm5uh7hWKn1r5xzspo1_500.gif

I just got tired of wading through it to get to posts about the actual thread topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish we had seen Tom awkwardly tell Torres he had children with Janeway.

Is this thread still about lizard babies and that terrible Threshold episode, or has it deteriorated into another bash Voyager thread?

tumblr_mm5uh7hWKn1r5xzspo1_500.gif

I just got tired of wading through it to get to posts about the actual thread topic.

We also tabled the ongoing discussion about Vulcans... hence, the new Vulcan biology thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammer   

I don't want to be a backseat mod, but I would have split the topic and merged those posts into the Vulcan physiology thread in General.

Maybe my 'deteriorated into another Voyager bashing thread' it's more of a general comment about how threads in this Voyager sub-forum often end up full of posts about why the show was a failure. In the Trek General sub-forum, I think that's completely fair. Inside the Voyager fan sub-forum, I think the negativity would just scare off anyone that is in fact a fan of the show unless the thread specifically asks for our opinions on the show in general. I don't want people who don't like the show to stop posting in here, I want to hear their input too, I'd just prefer that they stick closer to the topic at hand.

I know that early on, the impression I got was that theomegasector BBS was a DS9 board first and foremost and that Voyager fans aren't welcome. It's kind of like being fans of a band or singer, when someone else says; 'You like them?! That band sucks!' it's almost feels like a personal attack. I know it doesn't rise to that level, but just an example. When I started bashing DS9 in their sub-forum in retaliation, it doesn't go over well. When DS9 fans pile on Voyager in here, it's just a big joke.

I know that you are no fan of the show, so maybe that's why you haven't noticed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this