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GenesisDevice

Janeway and Paris' lizard babies

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Hammer   

Nah, "The Fight" tops it. It's the only episode of Trek I've never been able to stand watching all the way through.

We....are.....too...weird....for....you....TOO....STRANGE

If they had left off the de-evolution crap, Threshold had potential. Seeing what happens at Warp 10 is episode worthy. It's too bad that they didn't focus the episode on just that idea.

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I always thought the spores should have been explored more. It was the cure for pretty much all diseases.

Back to Voyager though--this episode isn't the only thing that should end the series.

How about the time they were on Earth in 1996?

Go the speed of light for a bit and you're home.

Or do the slingshot method, and you're home.

As for worst episode of Trek ever made, Threshold is up there, but there are other worthy episodes of Voyager that deserve to be in the debate, and it's probably another topic.

Voyager writers easily win the award for most lazy.

My worst episode of Trek is likely Flashback. It jumps at me as an episode that was supposed to be a tribute but came off as a tribute written by writers who hated the fact that they were forced to write a tribute.

It has to win the award for the laziest writing. They recreate the opening scene with Sulu in ST6, and wrote the rest of the episode as if they didn't watch anything in ST6 BUT that scene. In the briefing room with Kirk and Spock and crew, the first thing we find out is that 3 months passed. Meanwhile, that episode takes place within days. Of course then they kill a character that didn't die.

Yes, we can all explain the episode away by saying Tuvok's brain was messed up. But the writers' brains were not messed up. That was NOT the intent. They were just lazy.

Then I would argue that Blood Fever completely butchered Ponn Farr, by acting as if hand to hand combat can fix the problem, and that it was communicable to other species.

Endgame of course made Janeway into the biggest villain in Star Trek history.

There are more I'm sure but thankfully most of this has left me.

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My worst episode of Trek is likely Flashback. It jumps at me as an episode that was supposed to be a tribute but came off as a tribute written by writers who hated the fact that they were forced to write a tribute.

It has to win the award for the laziest writing. They recreate the opening scene with Sulu in ST6, and wrote the rest of the episode as if they didn't watch anything in ST6 BUT that scene. In the briefing room with Kirk and Spock and crew, the first thing we find out is that 3 months passed. Meanwhile, that episode takes place within days. Of course then they kill a character that didn't die.
Yes, we can all explain the episode away by saying Tuvok's brain was messed up. But the writers' brains were not messed up. That was NOT the intent. They were just lazy.

As I've said, you can see the difference between a tribute episode written by people who love the show ("Trials and Tribble-ations") and people who did it just as an assignment and have no real knowledge of or respect for the show. It's the simple fact that without Kirk and Spock and the Enterprise you literally can't have the episode...the entire plot falls apart.

"Flashback" could have been about any part of Tuvok's life and it doesn't make any difference. That the crew of the Excelsior is there and it simply doesn't matter. It's doubly useless taking into account that it only exists in his mind to begin with. "Flashback" is...vapor.

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My worst episode of Trek is likely Flashback. It jumps at me as an episode that was supposed to be a tribute but came off as a tribute written by writers who hated the fact that they were forced to write a tribute.

It has to win the award for the laziest writing. They recreate the opening scene with Sulu in ST6, and wrote the rest of the episode as if they didn't watch anything in ST6 BUT that scene. In the briefing room with Kirk and Spock and crew, the first thing we find out is that 3 months passed. Meanwhile, that episode takes place within days. Of course then they kill a character that didn't die.
Yes, we can all explain the episode away by saying Tuvok's brain was messed up. But the writers' brains were not messed up. That was NOT the intent. They were just lazy.

As I've said, you can see the difference between a tribute episode written by people who love the show ("Trials and Tribble-ations") and people who did it just as an assignment and have no real knowledge of or respect for the show. It's the simple fact that without Kirk and Spock and the Enterprise you literally can't have the episode...the entire plot falls apart.

"Flashback" could have been about any part of Tuvok's life and it doesn't make any difference. That the crew of the Excelsior is there and it simply doesn't matter. It's doubly useless taking into account that it only exists in his mind to begin with. "Flashback" is...vapor.

The only things about "Flashback" that I could say I enjoyed were George Takei's Capt. Sulu and Michael Ansara as "Kang" again; seeing the two of them interact (even via a space Skype) was almost worth the rest of the s#!tty episode.

But yes, you're right; DS9's anniversary is done with love and genuine grace. Dax throwing the 'falling' tribbles onto Kirk's head, for example; just perfect. The fact that the past and present stories tied together so well was like a sweet kiss to the fans. The "Forrest Gump" technology used in the episode actually worked better there than it did in "Forrest Gump", too (!).

VGR's anniversary was crass and calculated to milk unearned sentiment. Nothing in the VGR story mattered; it was all in Tuvok's head. They could've just as easily isolated the virus that much quicker, and that would've been that. The Excelsior flashback had no bearing on anything else.

The lizard babies are just another example about how wrongheaded VGR was so much (but not all) of the time.

An intriguing idea is presented (the Warp 10 threshold) and then screwed over in favor a "Fly"-style mutation story that doesn't fit the rest of it at all. It reminded me of the same disappointment when I saw Danny Boyle's otherwise excellent 2007 movie, "Sunshine"; the first 2/3rds are brilliant and then the rest of the movie was "Freddy Krueger in Space."

Every time this happens, a space geek cries....

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It reminded me of the same disappointment when I saw Danny Boyle's otherwise excellent 2007 movie, "Sunshine"; the first 2/3rds are brilliant and then the rest of the movie was "Freddy Krueger in Space."

I literally turn the film off when they board the other ship. It utterly unravels.

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It reminded me of the same disappointment when I saw Danny Boyle's otherwise excellent 2007 movie, "Sunshine"; the first 2/3rds are brilliant and then the rest of the movie was "Freddy Krueger in Space."

I literally turn the film off when they board the other ship. It utterly unravels.

So do I. :laugh:

Up till that moment, the movie was this [ ] close to being another "2001", too... such a shame.

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It reminded me of the same disappointment when I saw Danny Boyle's otherwise excellent 2007 movie, "Sunshine"; the first 2/3rds are brilliant and then the rest of the movie was "Freddy Krueger in Space."

I literally turn the film off when they board the other ship. It utterly unravels.

So do I. :laugh:

Up till that moment, the movie was this [ ] close to being another "2001", too... such a shame.

The tone changes so radically that I have to wonder if they simply got to that point and got stuck and didn't know how to finish it so they turn it into horror movie schlock to wrap it up.

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It reminded me of the same disappointment when I saw Danny Boyle's otherwise excellent 2007 movie, "Sunshine"; the first 2/3rds are brilliant and then the rest of the movie was "Freddy Krueger in Space."

I literally turn the film off when they board the other ship. It utterly unravels.

So do I. :laugh:

Up till that moment, the movie was this [ ] close to being another "2001", too... such a shame.

The tone changes so radically that I have to wonder if they simply got to that point and got stuck and didn't know how to finish it so they turn it into horror movie schlock to wrap it up.

Horribly disappointing film. Danny Boyle's usually so good and certainly always worth a look, but that one turned out to be a major stinker. Shame - started well...

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It reminded me of the same disappointment when I saw Danny Boyle's otherwise excellent 2007 movie, "Sunshine"; the first 2/3rds are brilliant and then the rest of the movie was "Freddy Krueger in Space."

I literally turn the film off when they board the other ship. It utterly unravels.

So do I. :laugh:

Up till that moment, the movie was this [ ] close to being another "2001", too... such a shame.

The tone changes so radically that I have to wonder if they simply got to that point and got stuck and didn't know how to finish it so they turn it into horror movie schlock to wrap it up.

Horribly disappointing film. Danny Boyle's usually so good and certainly always worth a look, but that one turned out to be a major stinker. Shame - started well...

The first 2/3rd of that movie is just amazing; I remember watching it in cinema late one night and actually feeling the sun's warmth during those spacewalking scenes. That ending... * sigh * I dunno. It's a head-scratcher.

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Then I would argue that Blood Fever completely butchered Ponn Farr, by acting as if hand to hand combat can fix the problem

Didn't Spock fight Kirk to the death, and then was fine and pon farr free? :confused:

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Then I would argue that Blood Fever completely butchered Ponn Farr, by acting as if hand to hand combat can fix the problem

Didn't Spock fight Kirk to the death, and then was fine and pon farr free? :confused:

That's the way I remember it. That's the way T'Pau explained it. One way or the other, the fight resolves the mating drive.

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Then I would argue that Blood Fever completely butchered Ponn Farr, by acting as if hand to hand combat can fix the problem

Didn't Spock fight Kirk to the death, and then was fine and pon farr free? :confused:

That's the way I remember it. That's the way T'Pau explained it. One way or the other, the fight resolves the mating drive.

Spock said in dialogue that the combat and the shock of thinking he'd killed his captain shook him out of it. So yeah, it did resolve the mating drive. From what I understand, the pon farr is a slow buildup of adrenaline that is essentially a Vulcan version of the 7 year itch. But since it's mainly an overdose of adrenaline, I don't see why it couldn't be worked out through combat alone; the same way some people work out anger and even sexual frustration at the gym. When you're physically and mentally exhausted, sex usually isn't the first thing on your mind...

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There are a lot of issues with Blood Fever. But you're right--it wasn't the COMBAT that cured the Ponn Farr--it was the shock of killing the captain. So just having a little sparring isn't going to do it.

The dialogue makes that clear.

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There are a lot of issues with Blood Fever. But you're right--it wasn't the COMBAT that cured the Ponn Farr--it was the shock of killing the captain. So just having a little sparring isn't going to do it.

The dialogue makes that clear.

That was unique to Spock's case however, because of his friendship to Kirk. It doesn't mean killing one's bestie works for EVERY Vulcan the same way. Pon farr is essentially an overdose of adrenaline and sex drive. Sometimes (among humans) extreme physical activity burns that out. It's not inconceivable that it works similarly (if on a more extreme scale) for Vulcans...

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There are a lot of issues with Blood Fever. But you're right--it wasn't the COMBAT that cured the Ponn Farr--it was the shock of killing the captain. So just having a little sparring isn't going to do it.

The dialogue makes that clear.

That was unique to Spock's case however, because of his friendship to Kirk. It doesn't mean killing one's bestie works for EVERY Vulcan the same way. Pon farr is essentially an overdose of adrenaline and sex drive. Sometimes (among humans) extreme physical activity burns that out. It's not inconceivable that it works similarly (if on a more extreme scale) for Vulcans...

We actually really don't know that the death of the other is what ends the blood rage. Indeed, Voyager suggests that it isn't. It may simply be that the tradition is that the fight is to the death. Is it logical to allow the death of someone in that circumstance when there are people around to prevent it? Arguably. For one it certainly lessens the likelihood of your rival interfering with your marriage.

Also, perhaps it's just something that's become a rather macabre tradition. Change it? That'd require talking in depth and debating something so uncomfortable if not abhorrent to Vulcans that they barely want to acknowledge that it exists.

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It wasn't the act of killing his pal--it was the emotion that was brought out. If Spock killed Stonn instead of Kirk, he'd still be horny.

Voyager got it completely wrong with the combat.

That episode is one of the reasons I didn't like Voyager--it just was so sloppy.

And then they made Pon Farr a transferable disease.

The frustrating part about that episode is that Voyager actually came up with a clever resolution to Pon Farr, and then wrote it in that it didn't work.

Tuvok getting laid in the holodeck should have worked. I don't remember if they came up for a reason why it didn't work because it has been a long time, but in theory, that should have done the job.

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Tuvok getting laid in the holodeck should have worked.

Why? Indeed, it shouldn't have worked. Part of sex with one's mental bondmate is, undoubtedly the meeting of the minds. There's no mind to meet. She's a blow-up doll made of light and force fields. She's empty.

And then they made Pon Farr a transferable disease.

How do we know it's not...because Spock didn't? he is half Human, I can absolutely buy that he potentially processed it differently. Sarek was able to broadcast his emotional state all over the ship and that well predates Voyager.

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It wasn't the act of killing his pal--it was the emotion that was brought out. If Spock killed Stonn instead of Kirk, he'd still be horny.

Voyager got it completely wrong with the combat.

That episode is one of the reasons I didn't like Voyager--it just was so sloppy.

And then they made Pon Farr a transferable disease.

The frustrating part about that episode is that Voyager actually came up with a clever resolution to Pon Farr, and then wrote it in that it didn't work.

Tuvok getting laid in the holodeck should have worked. I don't remember if they came up for a reason why it didn't work because it has been a long time, but in theory, that should have done the job.

Tuvok getting laid in the holodeck should have worked.

Why? Indeed, it shouldn't have worked. Part of sex with one's mental bondmate is, undoubtedly the meeting of the minds. There's no mind to meet. She's a blow-up doll made of light and force fields. She's empty.

And then they made Pon Farr a transferable disease.

How do we know it's not...because Spock didn't? he is half Human, I can absolutely buy that he potentially processed it differently. Sarek was able to broadcast his emotional state all over the ship and that well predates Voyager.

Expanding upon pon farr canon isn't negating it.

And one the first point, you're right about pon farr being psychological. If you'll recall (in dialogue) in "Amok Time" Spock mentions that he and T'Pring's minds were 'locked together, so that at the proper time (they) would both be drawn to koon-ut kal-ih-fee' (thus the mind lock that creates the condition is presumably transferrable via a mind meld; indeed, mind melding between the couple could be a key part in modern Vulcan mating rituals).

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Hammer   

Is this thread still about lizard babies and that terrible Threshold episode, or has it deteriorated into another bash Voyager thread?

Anyone else feel uneasy about the idea of Vulcans resolving their Ponn Farr on the holodeck? They have a sentient holographic doctor on board, but they still get to treat the holographic women on the holodeck like objects? She doesn't want to give consent? 'Computer, adjust her programming...' Has anyone else stopped to think about it this way?

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Sim   

Is this thread still about lizard babies and that terrible Threshold episode, or has it deteriorated into another bash Voyager thread?

Anyone else feel uneasy about the idea of Vulcans resolving their Ponn Farr on the holodeck? They have a sentient holographic doctor on board, but they still get to treat the holographic women on the holodeck like objects? She doesn't want to give consent? 'Computer, adjust her programming...' Has anyone else stopped to think about it this way?

My best guess is that mind meld of some kind plays a vital role in Pon Farr. You can't mind meld with a hologram, sentient or not.

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Anyone else feel uneasy about the idea of Vulcans resolving their Ponn Farr on the holodeck? They have a sentient holographic doctor on board, but they still get to treat the holographic women on the holodeck like objects? She doesn't want to give consent? 'Computer, adjust her programming...' Has anyone else stopped to think about it this way?

I think the show has more or less established that after installation of what I would guess is mockingly referred to as the LaForge Safety Algorithm, it's now impossible to impart sentience on a construct by throwing out one misplaced word.

However, it seems that time activated does directly impact the likelihood of consciousness. Limit the use of the fembot before deleting it and starting over there shouldn't be a problem.

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There was nothing in TOS that gave Voyager leeway to make Ponn Farr into these wacky things that they did.

Ponn Farr is a Vulcan male biological function. Star Trek III established it was a guy thing, so when T'Pol had it, that was screwed up too. But making it transferable? That was the stupidest mistake they could make. That's like a woman transferring her period to a guy--from another species.

Sloppy episode.

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There was nothing in TOS that gave Voyager leeway to make Ponn Farr into these wacky things that they did.

Except for the examples listed earlier:

How do we know it's not...because Spock didn't? he is half Human, I can absolutely buy that he potentially processed it differently. Sarek was able to broadcast his emotional state all over the ship and that well predates Voyager.

And one the first point, you're right about pon farr being psychological. If you'll recall (in dialogue) in "Amok Time" Spock mentions that he and T'Pring's minds were 'locked together, so that at the proper time (they) would both be drawn to koon-ut kal-ih-fee' (thus the mind lock that creates the condition is presumably transferrable via a mind meld; indeed, mind melding between the couple could be a key part in modern Vulcan mating rituals).

It's not just Vulcan males... it's Vulcan females too (T'Pol in ENT also suffered from it). Male and female are locked together in a mind meld so that they are BOTH drawn into the ritual at the proper time in adulthood (it's a way of controlling the impulse into a ritualistic fashion). Since males are generally more aggressive (via higher testosterone) than females (in humans anyway), that is probably why they suffer more acute side effects than women. T'Pau was also better able to keep it together because she was having an affair with Stonn, so some of her emotion for Spock was no doubt negated.

That's like a woman transferring her period to a guy

You've clearly never been married... :giggle:

And if humans were capable of telepathic bonding, I see no reason why a menstruating female couldn't (accidentally or intentionally) transfer her emotional state into her male partner (or female partner, if she were a lesbian; human or not). Emotional transference is a part of the mind-melding experience, which is part of the pon farr ritual.

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Man, we are SOOOO off-topic on this one.

I'm half-tempted to open a new thread about Vulcan physiology... :laugh:

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