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But the show was meant to be the "survivor" of Star Trek. By the time the show ended, VOY should have looked like a Frankenstein ship. Yet, it looked like it had left Earth's space dock the end of every episode.

Regardless, it did have some good moments.

As most here no, I'm not exactly VGR's biggest fan (hehe), but I still enjoy about a dozen of them or so.  "Meld" "Drone" and a few others are really good stuff. 

 

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But the show was meant to be the "survivor" of Star Trek. By the time the show ended, VOY should have looked like a Frankenstein ship. Yet, it looked like it had left Earth's space dock the end of every episode.

Regardless, it did have some good moments.

As most here no, I'm not exactly VGR's biggest fan (hehe), but I still enjoy about a dozen of them or so.  "Meld" "Drone" and a few others are really good stuff. 

 

I liked almost every EMH-centered episode. haha.

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But the show was meant to be the "survivor" of Star Trek. By the time the show ended, VOY should have looked like a Frankenstein ship. Yet, it looked like it had left Earth's space dock the end of every episode.

Regardless, it did have some good moments.

I was really hoping that they were going to leave all of the Borg technology on the hull after "Scorpion." Janeway did tell Torres to leave some of the modifications they made, but I guess she really hated all of those cool gizmos on the outer hull. And "Year of Hell" should have actually been a yearlong story, and not ended in the reset button.

It wouldn't have taken much effort to fix everything that was wrong with Voyager. It was often on the cusp of greatness, but then the show would shoot itself in the foot. "Message in a Bottle," for example, was a brilliant setup for the Hirogen. "Hunters" was okay and "Prey" was great, but having it all culminate in a holodeck episode? "The Killing Game" wasn't awful, but it wasn't really what I was looking for to end that particular story.

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Hammer   

Yes, I thought the Hirogen had promise too, but apparently they can be reasoned with, which kind of de-fanged them. One big concept change I would have made would have been to get them home during the Unimatrix Zero episode using the Borg transwarp conduits and with the assistance of rebelling Borg. Season 7 would have been like the 'Full Circle Fleet' from the novels. 

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Reasoning with the Hirogen was fine, but having them take an interest in Earth history was a bit much. Sure, it's good to understand the prey, but how much did the Hirogen learn about fighting 24th Century Starfleet by studying World War II? 

I would have loved to see Voyager come home a bit sooner than 30 seconds before the "Endgame" was over. "Unimatrix Zero" would have been as good an opportunity as any, I guess.

Edited by AlphaOmega

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Reasoning with the Hirogen was fine, but having them take an interest in Earth history was a bit much. Sure, it's good to understand the prey, but how much did the Hirogen learn about fighting 24th Century Starfleet by studying World War II? 

I would have loved to see Voyager come home a bit sooner than 30 seconds before the "Endgame" was over. "Unimatrix Zero" would have been as good an opportunity as any, I guess.

It's part of Star Trek's obsession with including Nazi-themed episodes for whatever reason.

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It's part of Star Trek's obsession with including Nazi-themed episodes for whatever reason.

I wouldn't exactly call it on obsession... there might have been five or six episodes total (both parts of "The Killing Game," both parts of "Storm Front" on ENT, and I'm sure TOS had a few but I'm not familiar enough with it to point them out). I'd imagine they liked revisiting World War II because the Nazis represent a sort of ultimate evil, and because it's cheaper than doing World War III or some other conflict.

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It's part of Star Trek's obsession with including Nazi-themed episodes for whatever reason.

I wouldn't exactly call it on obsession... there might have been five or six episodes total (both parts of "The Killing Game," both parts of "Storm Front" on ENT, and I'm sure TOS had a few but I'm not familiar enough with it to point them out). I'd imagine they liked revisiting World War II because the Nazis represent a sort of ultimate evil, and because it's cheaper than doing World War III or some other conflict.

True that obsession wasn't the proper word, but for a franchise that takes place centuries in the future about space exploration that is a pretty improbable amount of times that 20th century villains appeared. Even to the point where aliens are interested in them.

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But the show was meant to be the "survivor" of Star Trek. By the time the show ended, VOY should have looked like a Frankenstein ship. Yet, it looked like it had left Earth's space dock the end of every episode.

Regardless, it did have some good moments.

This.

I could give them a pass on the external look of the ship. You can call that a legitimate creative choice not to mess with the symmetry of Voyager and still more or less justify it from a story standpoint, but after seven years and no Starfleet spec backup to go to, the bridge should have been a hodgepodge, with a Kazon helm, Vidian, tactical station and a Hirogen warp core. They shouldn't have even been firing phasers and photon torpedoes anymore. 

 

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Olivia   

It's part of Star Trek's obsession with including Nazi-themed episodes for whatever reason.

I wouldn't exactly call it on obsession... there might have been five or six episodes total (both parts of "The Killing Game," both parts of "Storm Front" on ENT, and I'm sure TOS had a few but I'm not familiar enough with it to point them out). I'd imagine they liked revisiting World War II because the Nazis represent a sort of ultimate evil, and because it's cheaper than doing World War III or some other conflict.

True that obsession wasn't the proper word, but for a franchise that takes place centuries in the future about space exploration that is a pretty improbable amount of times that 20th century villains appeared. Even to the point where aliens are interested in them.

I totally agree with this. I'm not a huge fan of holodeck episodes at the best of times and I sigh and duck my head when they do these 'let's dress the characters up in historical clothing, cause that's really cool' episodes. It's lazy and unimaginative.

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Sim   

It's part of Star Trek's obsession with including Nazi-themed episodes for whatever reason.

I wouldn't exactly call it on obsession... there might have been five or six episodes total (both parts of "The Killing Game," both parts of "Storm Front" on ENT, and I'm sure TOS had a few but I'm not familiar enough with it to point them out). I'd imagine they liked revisiting World War II because the Nazis represent a sort of ultimate evil, and because it's cheaper than doing World War III or some other conflict.

TOS had one Nazi episode, "Patterns of Force".

I could be wrong, but IIRC, I read somewhere they did that because they had the sets and costumes available at the studio from other productions. Plus, they had an entire series of "past earth" stories on TOS, especially towards the end of the second season, such as "A Piece of the Action" where they visited Chicago in the 1920s and "Bread and Circuses" and its ancient Rome.

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I totally agree with this. I'm not a huge fan of holodeck episodes at the best of times and I sigh and duck my head when they do these 'let's dress the characters up in historical clothing, cause that's really cool' episodes. It's lazy and unimaginative.

Rick Berman would like to have a few words with you. According to him, those episodes are fun period pieces that give the actors a chance to get out of their space suits. Personally, I think the holodeck is a great idea, a great way to show the characters doing something fun... but not for a whole entire episode. If I want to watch a western, I'll watch True Grit or something. If I want to watch a baseball game, I'll... watch a baseball game.

TOS had one Nazi episode, "Patterns of Force".

I could be wrong, but IIRC, I read somewhere they did that because they had the sets and costumes available at the studio from other productions. Plus, they had an entire series of "past earth" stories on TOS, especially towards the end of the second season, such as "A Piece of the Action" where they visited Chicago in the 1920s and "Bread and Circuses" and its ancient Rome.

Only one? Really? I could've sworn there were more... unless I'm just confused by the other "past earth" stories. This is why you're the expert on TOS and not me.

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Sim   

 

TOS had one Nazi episode, "Patterns of Force".

I could be wrong, but IIRC, I read somewhere they did that because they had the sets and costumes available at the studio from other productions. Plus, they had an entire series of "past earth" stories on TOS, especially towards the end of the second season, such as "A Piece of the Action" where they visited Chicago in the 1920s and "Bread and Circuses" and its ancient Rome.

Only one? Really? I could've sworn there were more... unless I'm just confused by the other "past earth" stories. This is why you're the expert on TOS and not me.

Yep, only one ... and it was an especially mysterious episode here in Germany. It was never on free tv here, so there were many myths and mysteries about the allegedly "banned episode" in the early 90s (although it had never actually been "banned", it just had too high a youth protection rating to be shown in the afternoon timeslot, and the tv channel deliberately didn't show it). In 1996, it was finally released on VHS video here, and was played on pay tv ever since then. It was included in the DVD and Blu Ray releases since 2004, but wasn't aired on free tv before 2011.

I had seen all TOS episodes except "Patterns of Force" by 1992, so it was kind of a weird experience to finally uncover this "lost episode" four years later, on VHS.

Edited by Sim

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It's part of Star Trek's obsession with including Nazi-themed episodes for whatever reason.

I wouldn't exactly call it on obsession... there might have been five or six episodes total (both parts of "The Killing Game," both parts of "Storm Front" on ENT, and I'm sure TOS had a few but I'm not familiar enough with it to point them out). I'd imagine they liked revisiting World War II because the Nazis represent a sort of ultimate evil, and because it's cheaper than doing World War III or some other conflict.

True that obsession wasn't the proper word, but for a franchise that takes place centuries in the future about space exploration that is a pretty improbable amount of times that 20th century villains appeared. Even to the point where aliens are interested in them.

I totally agree with this. I'm not a huge fan of holodeck episodes at the best of times and I sigh and duck my head when they do these 'let's dress the characters up in historical clothing, cause that's really cool' episodes. It's lazy and unimaginative.

Agreed. I'd rather much see the Eugenics War or World War III, even if it is only tiny glimpses of it. Despite the hate of TNG's pilot, I enjoyed seeing the post-nuclear kangaroo court that seemed reminiscent of a Mad Max-world. Even if it is dated now.

But that was one of the issues of the holodeck episodes that VOY abused. It seemed like an excuse to have them dress up, but at least the WWII/Hirogen episode was exciting at times. I'll grant them that.

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Olivia   

I totally agree with this. I'm not a huge fan of holodeck episodes at the best of times and I sigh and duck my head when they do these 'let's dress the characters up in historical clothing, cause that's really cool' episodes. It's lazy and unimaginative.

Rick Berman would like to have a few words with you. According to him, those episodes are fun period pieces that give the actors a chance to get out of their space suits. Personally, I think the holodeck is a great idea, a great way to show the characters doing something fun... but not for a whole entire episode. If I want to watch a western, I'll watch True Grit or something. If I want to watch a baseball game, I'll... watch a baseball game.

I can understand that and a wee glimpse into there holo-novels and holodeck past times lets us understand more about the characters etc but whole entire episodes is an extremity. 

I quite liked how they integrated the Dixon Hill holo-novel into First Contact though, so I'm not a total holo-hater!

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I totally agree with this. I'm not a huge fan of holodeck episodes at the best of times and I sigh and duck my head when they do these 'let's dress the characters up in historical clothing, cause that's really cool' episodes. It's lazy and unimaginative.

Rick Berman would like to have a few words with you. According to him, those episodes are fun period pieces that give the actors a chance to get out of their space suits. Personally, I think the holodeck is a great idea, a great way to show the characters doing something fun... but not for a whole entire episode. If I want to watch a western, I'll watch True Grit or something. If I want to watch a baseball game, I'll... watch a baseball game.

I can understand that and a wee glimpse into there holo-novels and holodeck past times lets us understand more about the characters etc but whole entire episodes is an extremity. 

I quite liked how they integrated the Dixon Hill holo-novel into First Contact though, so I'm not a total holo-hater!

I remember when I first saw FC in theatres almost 20 years ago (Yikes!) and when the Dixon Hill sequence came?  I was worried that the movie was going to stop dead in its tracks.  

But thanks to some deft writing, it segued into the rest of the story quite nicely (both advancing character and storyline, and offering a nice homage to the earlier days of TNG).   And even though I'm not a big VGR fan (sorry!), I appreciate that Ethan Philips got a cameo (Philips was out-of-makeup as the maitre d) 

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Those are examples of the holodeck being used smartly in a story. The Captain Proton stuff was fun in Voyager, too... and I'll even give them a pass on the "The Bride of Chaotica!" since the bridge literally caught on fire and they couldn't use it. "Worse Case Scenario" was also a good use of the holodeck (the one with Seska's program).

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The problem with the holodeck is it was rarely ever interestingly used. It was always in the past and usually boring pieces like a non-wild west, a pseudo noir-detective series, some type of French garden in Barclay's "fantasy", an Irish village, a children's story, and some type of gothic plot in VOY. What the hell is this? The stuff Bashir and O'Brien "played" sounded way more fun than any of that.

Photons Be Free was a really great idea because it was social commentary within the universe for holographic rights. We never get to see anyone recreating a famous WWIII battle, but I bet Bashir and O'Brien fought at "D-Day". In fact, I think it would have been interesting if people "role played" the original series like we would if holodecks were real. Maybe be the 24th century, role playing "games" won't be as...popular.

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