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JayTheTrekkie

In The Pale Moonlight

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Merged this topic with the already existing "In The Pale Moonlight" discussion thread.

Let's not start redundant topics, OK? ;)

But yes, a good point.

One point I want to address is that how could Starfleet command have not been aware of what was happening on the station (ala our current mess in the US with the NSA)? I would offer that because Terok Nor is a Cardassian built, Bajoran-owned station it is not necessarily subject to Starfleet's usual monitoring protocols.

And I think Founder has a point as well; "inter arma enim silent leges"... in times of war, the laws are silent (also a good episode, but a later topic). Even if command knew the full truth, and I suspect at some point they will/did, who's going to censure Sisko for a gutsy (if highly illegal) move that saved billions of lives and (doubtless) gave them victory against the Dominion? Another DS9 quote comes to mind (this time from Bashir in "Dr. Bashir, I presume..."), "There's no stigma attached to success." Either way, it wouldn't have mattered; if the war had been lost? Sisko and whatever survivors of the Federation would be too worried about living under Jem'Hadar boot heels to give a damn over whether tricking the Romulans was the right move or not. And since the outcome was in their favor? I doubt anyone in Fleet command is crying over the necessary ethics used in a desperate time of war....

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I can accept the plausible deniability, but bashir filed his own complaints with starfleet medical as well, sisjo could not have simply just kept that from them, the point being either starfleet knew and feigned ignorance or they are a lot more stupid that we thought they were.

The tal shiar, obsidian order would not be the sort to let things like this go unnotced were it they monitoring things in their camps.

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I can accept the plausible deniability, but bashir filed his own complaints with starfleet medical as well, sisjo could not have simply just kept that from them, the point being either starfleet knew and feigned ignorance or they are a lot more stupid that we thought they were.

The tal shiar, obsidian order would not be the sort to let things like this go unnotced were it they monitoring things in their camps.

Like I said, they probably do know, but didn't want details to give the illusion they know nothing about what happened with Vreenak.

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I just rewatched this, and I don't take issue with what Sisko or Garak did. It certainly isn't something that Roddenberry would write, but who cares? Garak mentions that this mission costed 2 lives, the senator and the forger, but weren't there also 4 bodyguards on that shuttle? The potential for blowback on the shuttle bombing was incredible, so is Sisko more angry about not being in the loop on such a risky move, or that the jerk senator and the violent offender were killed?

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I just rewatched this, and I don't take issue with what Sisko or Garak did. It certainly isn't something that Roddenberry would write, but who cares? Garak mentions that this mission costed 2 lives, the senator and the forger, but weren't there also 4 bodyguards on that shuttle? The potential for blowback on the shuttle bombing was incredible, so is Sisko more angry about not being in the loop on such a risky move, or that the jerk senator and the violent offender were killed?

The problem is that Roddenberry would have simply wrote that Sisko would have spoken with the Founders, realized they aren't so different at all, and no conflict would have ever arisen. While a nice sentiment, it really does not show a recognition of belligerent forces out there that don't want to reach some understanding. They simply want dominance. Period.

What I find strange is that Roddenberry never had Starfleet and the Klingon Empire ever really reach an amicable unity until ST: VI. Yes, Kirk and some individual Klingons would end the episode laughing together, but that's not the same as Starfleet/the Empire.

As for your question - Sisko was angry that Garak took such a risk after their little plot had failed. He didn't reach the same conclusion that Garak had reached. The Tal Shiar would investigate, find the rod, and realize what it "meant" coupled with Vreenak's death. Sisko assumed they'd reach the same conclusion that Vreenak had, but he didn't factor in that the explosion would mask the imperfections. Although - I am sure he was bothered by all the killing (of Tolar too).

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I just rewatched this, and I don't take issue with what Sisko or Garak did. It certainly isn't something that Roddenberry would write, but who cares? Garak mentions that this mission costed 2 lives, the senator and the forger, but weren't there also 4 bodyguards on that shuttle? The potential for blowback on the shuttle bombing was incredible, so is Sisko more angry about not being in the loop on such a risky move, or that the jerk senator and the violent offender were killed?

The problem is that Roddenberry would have simply wrote that Sisko would have spoken with the Founders, realized they aren't so different at all, and no conflict would have ever arisen. While a nice sentiment, it really does not show a recognition of belligerent forces out there that don't want to reach some understanding. They simply want dominance. Period.

What I find strange is that Roddenberry never had Starfleet and the Klingon Empire ever really reach an amicable unity until ST: VI. Yes, Kirk and some individual Klingons would end the episode laughing together, but that's not the same as Starfleet/the Empire.

As for your question - Sisko was angry that Garak took such a risk after their little plot had failed. He didn't reach the same conclusion that Garak had reached. The Tal Shiar would investigate, find the rod, and realize what it "meant" coupled with Vreenak's death. Sisko assumed they'd reach the same conclusion that Vreenak had, but he didn't factor in that the explosion would mask the imperfections. Although - I am sure he was bothered by all the killing (of Tolar too).

Indeed he probably would write it that way. The dominion conflict would be one episode with a feel good ending, or they would be recurring villains but more of a regional nuisance than a threat to the entire Federation.

Yes, and they were laughing in that episode to stop the power from influencing them to fight. The same goes with the Romulans too, they never reconciled with the Federation on Gene's watch. I guess he understood that he needed villains, but not involved enough to ever cause Starfleet to consider abandoning their core beliefs. Star Trek VI wasn't on his watch either, and that movie had to be influenced by the detente with the Soviet Union.

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One of the greatest Trek episodes ever. I always like the turbo lift scene where Garak tells Sisko he told Tolar if he tried to leave the doors would explode and Sisko is like "I hope that's not true" and Garak just brushes it off as if to say "oh yeah, they'll blow".

Several years ago I posed a question on TrekWeb about if Kirk, Picard, Janeway, and Archer would make the same decision. I think most agreed Kirk and Archer would but Picard and Janeway would rather be under Dominion rule than sink to that level (and you know we'd get a speech about it from them too LOL).

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Kirk would definitely, he even used Spock to appear to turn traitor to give him cover to perform espionage on the Romulans. Archer, I could see him doing it too, they hadn't really developed the 24th century ideals yet. Picard wouldn't even entertain such a plan, his actions in 'The Pegasus' would be good precedent. Garak wouldn't even be allowed on board ship in the first place. Janeway.... well, who's writing her character this week? I think she would go along with the plan. She would be disgusted and not want to do it for her own sake, but she would guilt-trip over the casualty lists and ultimately do it.

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In terms of the post above, I love the image of Picard confronting this whole situation. He would be absolutely appalled, even before Garak's actions. Imagine a scene between him and Sisko debating over the situation...that would get pretty fiery.

Of course, this episode didn't need any of that -- it's fantastic in itself. In all honesty, I'm not sure if I can even think of anything I would change in the episode...the writing, acting and directing combines to make something that is very difficult to fault.

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