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Star Trek: Voyager versus Ronal D. Moore

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I did not mean to say 'hoe'. I meant to say 'how'.

Not that old affairs are all that relevent, but saucy gossip gets you guys.

The writer's room likely had no knowledge of these events and if they did, the powers that be told them to hush it.

Also as for Tuvix, go read the Memory Alpha on the making of it, and the myriad threads devoted to the subject. Even your rival Trek BBS did one.

*edited by chimera

Edited by Chimera82405

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As for Berman and Ryan, well he's higher up so he gave her good stories. Wasn't he the producer? He was also divorced at the time.

Ryan and Brannon Braga were a couple, not her and Rick Berman.

As for Mulgrew and her paramour, (It was Biller, not Piller), she was already an established actress, and married at the time, so hers was kept secret easier and Biller was not as high ranked there.

Why would helping the billed star of the show get better material be a red flag to anyone?

Not that old affairs are all that relevent, but saucy gossip gets you guys.

I find that remark mildly insulting,for the obvious insinuations and for the fact that the only one who brought it up to make a point was you.

The writer's room likely had no knowledge of these events and if they did, the powers that be told them to hush it.

Again, why would the attempts of a producer to get the star of the show better material be odd to anyone?

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I've never heard of Mulgrew having ANY kind of affair with producer Kenneth Biller. Could you cite a source on that, please?

Again, without some kind of source I'm inclined to believe it was gossip and nothing more.

Quote

Not that old affairs are all that relevent, but saucy gossip gets you guys.

I find that remark mildly insulting,for the obvious insinuations and for the fact that the only one who brought it up to make a point was you.

As do I, but I'm not sure if it was an intentional slur. :dontgetit:

Now, it was on record (and in photos) that Jeri Ryan was dating Brannon Braga at the time, but she is also a remarkable actress.

If any 'favors' were done for Ryan to beef up her part? I think it was ultimately to the show's benefit, as it gave one of the only interesting characters on VGR even more screen time.

Lucky break for the fans.

28005_thumb.jpg << Ryan with Brannon Braga, or as I call him, one lucky sumbitch. ;)

As for Mulgrew & Biller? I would like to better understand the source of this, as this is the first I've ever heard of it.

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Now, it was on record (and in photos) that Jeri Ryan was dating Brannon Braga at the time, but she is also a remarkable actress.

If any 'favors' were done for Ryan to beef up her part? I think it was ultimately to the show's benefit, as it gave one of the only interesting characters on VGR even more screen time.

Lucky break for the fans.

Absolutely. If he started giving her more to work with because they were dating? Fine with that when she proved repeatedly that she was talented enough to handle it. To be honest, I don't know really how much one has to do with the other. Ryan was brought on to shake up the show anyway. It made sense that, at least initially, that they were going to focus on her anyway. Doesn't hurt that she proved capable and popular.

Let's continue to be honest and say, other than The Doctor and maybe Tuvok, it's not as if any character was really resonating with the audience, so I doubt the shift in focus to Ryan cost anyone screen time. It's not like they were suddenly going to divert more creative energy to Paris, Kim, or Chakotay.

And I never heard of the Mulgrew Biller thing. I suspect he's confusing that with the fact that Mulgrew dated frequent director Winrich Kolbe for several years.

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Kolbe not the other guy.

**edited by chimera

Tabloid comments will be full of holes, just like some Voyager plots.

Yes but if the audience wasn't getting it, why was Voyager on for 7 years and never once in danger of being cancelled? It must have worked for some,.

Also note that the sundry details are not going to be on wikipedia and memry alpha. They won't publish anything saucy on those sites. Someone answers to CBS there.

Edited by Chimera82405

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And maybe having a producer or director as your lover is kinda a double edged deal. I dunno. It seems sometimes if you or they were in the doghouse, performance in the show could slip.

Well, that Mulgrew dated a prolific Trek director is irrelevant, really. He had nothing much to do with production beyond shooting an occasional script. Had it been a problem Kolbe would simply have been forgotten by TPTB and never used again. Not a big deal.

Braga was essentially the boss of the show. If Ryan were on the outs with him after they quit dating, he certainly never took any bitterness out on her. She still got plenty to do and she still excelled. The whole Seven/Chakotay thing was just some bit of creative stupid on Braga's part that he now cops to, and not some means of getting back at her or something.

Yes but if the audience wasn't getting it, why was Voyager on for 7 years and never once in danger of being cancelled? It must have worked for some,.

TNG ran for seven seasons.

DS9 ran for seven seasons.

There's no way in the multiverse that UPN was going to cancel the anchor show of their fledgling network before seven seasons.

It didn't help Enterprise that, by the time season four rolled around, UPN was looking to fold its tents anyway.

Also note that the sundry details are not going to be on wikipedia and memry alpha. They won't publish anything saucy on those sites. Someone answers to CBS there.

So? Vie only asked you to source what you'd heard. You might not have gotten it from any wiki, but you'd gotten it from somewhere. All he did was ask where. Now that you admitted your error that's not really necessary, but it was just an honest question.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Oh well, and one of you has never met a male Voyager fan, really? In all the conventions you likely attended, and places you likely went, you never once met a guy who like Voyager?

I think you are referring to my statement... however, I said I RARELY encounter male VOY fans. They DO exist. (And no, I actually don't go to conventions, I'm not THAT much of a fan.)

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Oh well, and one of you has never met a male Voyager fan, really? In all the conventions you likely attended, and places you likely went, you never once met a guy who like Voyager?

I think you are referring to my statement... however, I said I RARELY encounter male VOY fans. They DO exist. (And no, I actually don't go to conventions, I'm not THAT much of a fan.)

I've known a few as well (even though I am not one of them). I've even seen a few VGR cosplayers (Seven costumes mostly, or a person in a Starfleet uniform with a face tattoo, etc).

They're not that rare....

As for Mulgrew dating director Winrich Kolbe?

She was divorced from her ex-husband (in 1993, according to Memory Alpha) and remarried her current husband (Ohio politician Tim Hagan) in 1998. Memory Alpha said they dated during the early years of the show, and since Kolbe is dead now (as of 2012) there isn't much information on his personal life, so it's unclear if Kolbe was married at that time he dated Mulgrew. One must be VERY careful to characterize it as 'an affair'; especially if both parties were NOT married at the time. Then we're spreading potential slander, not just idle gossip (big difference).

Let's just be careful about our facts before we post illicit (and untrue) rumors about an actor's personal life, OK?

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My apologies to Kate Mulgrew and her current family, or Congressman Hagan. I meant no disrespect.

Old rumors from 1995 aren't going to libel anyone now. She's an established icon, even then, so really there is nothing to read here. Jeri was new, so she was more shocking. But now it's 2014 and doeas it really shock anyone?

Originally the libelous rumor was started in 1995 by jealous fans, and a jealous ex husband who encouraged it (likely the ex), until the powers that be at the studio ordered web sites to close that discussed it. You will not find this on wikipedia and MA as they are just discussing facts, not trivia or rumors.

I did not mean to offend Kate Mulgrew. But you guys do. You keep calling her character a murderer and crazy. Janeway was based on a feminist leader. She was irratic yes, but that's the writing staff being inconsistent. They're not infallable.

Of her children from her first marriage, one of them refuswes to ever watch Voyager again because of the long hours, family matters, etc. See her biographies. The Captains includes a scene.

Now that Mr. Kolbe is dead, which I did not know until I read about it just now, it is unfortante that any old junk about him still exists out there. He probably never even thought about all of that back then.

After some searching for rumors about Voyager, the we includes several of these stories, of which cast dating directors and suchis one, and this was to long ago to make a difference at all, and not libel. She is a public figure.

Rumors are not usually put in wiki pages like MA and wikipedia. They're on message boards. TrekBBS is still running with the one about Janeway and Kolbe and the ex, but I'm not linking it. Go find it. And no, they're not a good source of news.

It's not like these actors did anything all that different from what regular people do.

Edited by Chimera82405

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Libel is written and slander is spoken

There are three lawyers in my immediate and extended family, so i speak with a little bit of knowledge on the topic when I say that Vie is correct. The medium is taken into account as it pertains to the civil action. Write that comment in your blog or online fanzine, it's meant to be directly disseminated with little to no engagement from other parties. In that case the civil action is libel.

The sort of thing that's happening right now in this thread? It's treated as conversation. It's treated as the spoken word, so "slander" does indeed apply, not "libel".

but an old rumor from about 1995 is really not relevent anyway, and cannot be libel if as a public figure and as it being a very old story, could not defame in any way persons involved

This would actually be a matter for the judge and/or jury. Your declaration is meaningless. That it's "old" is equally meaningless. A member of Kolbe's family, for instance, could argue that their damages come from you dredging up old wounds. You also cannot assume that, because it's old news to you that it's old news to everyone and that no damage can come of it.

As I said, it'd be a judicial finding of fact either way and it doesn't really matter what your take on it is. It's best avoided all around.

And, you won't "participate in a Janeway (Mulgrew) slam and yet you want to spend the next several paragraphs dredging up her love life?

The Captains also spells it out in that she claims working on Voyager ruined her relationships and even one of her children refuses to watch the show. If it was just long hours and there was no truth somewhere, the boy wouldn't be so offended by the show as to never watch it again.

And it, of course couldn't even theoretically have to do with long hours spent on set, essentially depriving him of a parent?

nd also now she is married happily now, to someone in power, so yeah, not meants as libel.

Again, in this case it's slander.

Move along.

Pretty please?

Edited by prometheus59650

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You are always commenting on my posts, even when I apologize, acting like some kind of lawyer, or a network nanny, Prom. What is your problem with me? You go on my comment threads frequently and comment to me sometimes to anger me and get me to have a rant, but notice it doesn't really work. What's the deal? I meant nothing by bringing up that story, as I think someone else initially hinted at it in the first place, and it's done, over, kaput. It doesn't matter since you are not a moderator. I am not one either.

Be assured there are lawyers on this site and if they thought this was bad they would have immediately closed this thread. My apologies to Kate and her family stand. That is enough. She's not reading this.

Really, what is your deal? Go on, enlighten all of these good folks as to how evil you think I really am?

You who are without sin, throw a stone.

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What? I'll concede that perhaps "pretty please" was slightly out of bounds and I'll own that and apologize.

I don't think anything else in my post was inappropriate.

As for the "evil?" I am at a loss for a basis for that, much less a response.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Okay. This has gone far enough.

A) Chimera, Prometheus has the right to comment on posts and since yours are often controversial it stands to reason that people will comment. Such is the nature of a message board. This IS a place for discussions and debates, and if you state controversial opinions you WILL receive feedback for them. This does not mean that anyone thinks you're "evil".

B) Prometheus, sometimes it's better to just let things go. Nothing is going to be achieved by picking apart every little sentence Chimera types. It could be interpreted as attacking since you do it basically whenever he appears AND often with a rather personal undertone. I do realize that you apologize if things get too much out of hand but it would be better if it didn't happen in the first place.

That being said, the personal attacking stops here and now. From BOTH of you. If I see ONE more post like the ones directly above whoever is involved WILL receive a warning.

That is all. Carry on.

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I see where some people come from with the whole Tuvix thing, and while his desperation to live was very emotional, the story itself was kind of warped (no pun intended). It basically raised the question of who deserved more to live: a pair of individuals caught in a horrible accident, or one who was never meant to exist. Personally, I think the writers pushed that concept too far, and was glad they kept Tuvok and Neelix on board.

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The story is a good moral one and it could have actually been a stand out, but they really left no grey area for people who sided with Tuvix to grasp. Had there been even a billion to one chance that the fusion could eventually fail I think people could have accepted that reversal was a viable option. But he was fine...and he was going to stay fine, so it comes to a choice of saving two crew members that were already dead in favor of the one that was very much alive.

Then there's the fact that Tuvix goes to Kes to plea for his survival and all she ends up doing is crying that she wants Neelix back, which seems all the reason Janeway needs to kill the man, followed by the looks of abject shame on the faces of the crew as he begs them for help. They know it's wrong. They do nothing.

Even Janeway can't say more than "Welcome back" to the two before she rushes out of sickbay.

It simply feels evil. If feels like the moral bankruptcy that it is.

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The story is a good moral one and it could have actually been a stand out, but they really left no grey area for people who sided with Tuvix to grasp. Had there been even a billion to one chance that the fusion could eventually fail I think people could have accepted that reversal was a viable option. But he was fine...and he was going to stay fine, so it comes to a choice of saving two crew members that were already dead in favor of the one that was very much alive.

Then there's the fact that Tuvix goes to Kes to plea for his survival and all she ends up doing is crying that she wants Neelix back, which seems all the reason Janeway needs to kill the man, followed by the looks of abject shame on the faces of the crew as he begs them for help. They know it's wrong. They do nothing.

Even Janeway can't say more than "Welcome back" to the two before she rushes out of sickbay.

It simply feels evil. If feels like the moral bankruptcy that it is.

^

My problem with it.

If Tuvix were in pain or somehow suffering then it wouldn't be a question of morality, but rather one of mercy.

But Tuvix was not suffering and was DELIGHTING in his new form. Yes, he was born of technology, but that doesn't make his right to exist (a right he himself advocates, by the way) any less valid than if he were still those two, 'naturally-born' separate individuals.

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I think one thing that is not acknowledged is...Tuvok and Neelix were essentially dead. People on the opposite side of Tuvix are arguing that it is unfair to "sacrifice" two lives for one. Tuvok and Neelix had already "died". There is no "sacrifice" here. They were fused together to form one being purely by accident. Tragic? Perhaps. But it doesn't change the fact that what is done is done. Tuvok and Neelix were essentially gone. Saying it is a sacrifice is implying Janeway arbitrarily selected two crewmen and in a twisted science experiment sacrificed them to make some new alien creature. That is not what happened at all.

In fact, the reversal they did at the end was a scientific version of blood magic. A life for a life (or in this case...two lives). So if anyone was "sacrificed", it had actually been Tuvix.

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I think one thing that is not acknowledged is...Tuvok and Neelix were essentially dead. People on the opposite side of Tuvix are arguing that it is unfair to "sacrifice" two lives for one. Tuvok and Neelix had already "died". There is no "sacrifice" here. They were fused together to form one being purely by accident. Tragic? Perhaps. But it doesn't change the fact that what is done is done. Tuvok and Neelix were essentially gone. Saying it is a sacrifice is implying Janeway arbitrarily selected two crewmen and in a twisted science experiment sacrificed them to make some new alien creature. That is not what happened at all.

In fact, the reversal they did at the end was a scientific version of blood magic. A life for a life (or in this case...two lives). So if anyone was "sacrificed", it had actually been Tuvix.

Spot on all around. This was the episode that solidified for me that that crew didn't deserve to get home.

"Fair Haven was just the cherry on top of that particular Sundae. her position there basically that we can't sacrifice the holograms for the actual crew because the holograms are alive if we think they are. Well, Tuvix was actually alive and you had no problem offing him

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The big problem for me with the Tuvix episode was really a matter of intent. If the merging had been voluntary, or necessary to save them both from a horrible fate, I could at least understand the new life's desire to remain. But the writing was so vague, that I didn't really know who to side for - every option made me feel sick inside. Tuvix, as a combined being, was never meant to exist; he was the unintentional result of a transporter accident. Putting it another way, this isn't the same as artificial fertilization, where the parents choose to form their baby, or the similar situation of mutual natural conception, where again an intentional choice was made. Tuvix was "born" from a 100% accident...which then begs the question, "What inherent value does a life have, which was never meant to exist (and thankfully never could in reality)"?

It definitely makes people think, but overall, the writing was too sloppy. I think those responsible knew they couldn't take a firm stand on either side without angering people, so instead made an attempt for "the lesser of two evils"...and it backfired.

Edited by Moviefan2k4

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I don't remember "Tuvix" well enough, but ... after they had been recovered in the end, did both Tuvok and Neelix remember Tuvix' experiences? If so, one could argue Tuvix has not been killed, but just seperated into two individuals who now share the memory of their brief time of fusion. Not sure if that would make things better (because I'm sure, the VOY writers didn't even think far enough to give such a short explanation, even if it would solve a thing).

VOY to me feels more like a cheap cartoon series for kids that just accidentally happens to be played by real life actors, than a genuine Star Trek life action series.

Oftentimes, the writers just strike me as dumb. When rewatching DS9, I noticed *how much* the writers there thought of things that could stand out if looking closely at an episode, and addressed it at least with a thrown in sentence somewhere (like i.e. in "It's Only a Paper Moon", when Nog learns Vic can turn himself off and asks Miles if he is sentient ... and Miles replies: "I'm an engineer, not a philosopher" -- VOY didn't even address this problem over its entire run, apparently either assuming the audience is stupid, or the writers are stupid/not allowed to address it. But it's a major problem -- IS the MHN sentient or not? And if so, what are the implications when you can create intelligent life just by giving the right order to a computer?).

And that's just *one* example. DS9 has been so much more thoughtful.

After TNG ended and DS9 kind of became a "college guy" Trek, they apparently thought they need to address other demographics who had been into TNG as well. I have the distinct feeling that VOY was deliberately designed to address mostly kids and housewifes (nothing against kids or housewifes, but you know what TPTB think of them). And by the age the little boys had become old enough, they'd throw in a good dose of "Baywatch" aesthetics by adding the synthetic enhanched-boobs-and-lips charm of Seven.

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"What inherent value does a life have, which was never meant to exist

Except that it does, and I think it has a decent bit of value when it's all but on its knees pleading with you not to kill it.

I think those responsible knew they couldn't take a firm stand on either side without angering people, so instead made an attempt for "the lesser of two evils"...and it backfired.

I think they knew they couldn't take a firm stand because it didn't matter. Everything had to reset in 43 minutes anyway so they didn't have to think that hard about it.

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Well, the main reason I liked Tuvix as a character, was because I already liked both Tuvok and Neelix. The actor they got for Tuvix did a very good job, but in the end, he didn't really stand on his own. All his behaviors were variations on what we'd already seen from Tuvok and Neelix; there was nothing original or unique. So while seeing him beg for mercy pulled at my heart, my mind keeps thinking stuff like, "Why should I care, when he has no identity of his own?" I know that sounds cruel, but its not my goal at all; I have trouble finding the right phrases sometimes.

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.. after they had been recovered in the end, did both Tuvok and Neelix remember Tuvix'

The end of the episode just has Janeway bolting from the room after the separation, and as far as I can recall it's never spoken of again.

Completely agreed that DS9 was far more thoughtful. They knew they had to be. They knew the nature of the show was such that they were stuck with what they did. There was no just flying off.

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