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Star Trek: Voyager versus Ronal D. Moore

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Not to mention what if Neelix poisoned the crew? Humans have many commonalities with dogs; we're both mammals, we have incisor teeth, we're both from the planet Earth and we both have four-legged ancestors. Yet they can't eat chocolate; it's literally poisonous to them. Neelix is a being from another part of the freaking galaxy; goodness knows what kind of crazy crap in his recipe book would be like warmed-over ebola virus to humans. We've seen the crew have bad reactions to his concoctions on the show (hell, it was a f**king running joke!) yet he is allowed to keep cooking for the crew! WTF?!? Was that some kind of gastrointestinal punishment for the crew from Janeway??

Well, I believe it was "Learning Curve" where his cooking almost killed the ship by contaminating the gelpacks with mold or spores or some such.

Let that sink in: Neelix's cooking almost killed a starship.

That's actually kind of funny.

Neelix may have had some utility as an interstellar guide, but the whole gatherer nonsense was makework. Somebody skimming a medical tricorder over a plant would have told them if it was edible or not and would have indirectly at least given one a hint how to best prepare it.

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I guess I'm (once again, haha) the only one who would have told them to drop the dark premise and just think of something else, lol.

Or there's that.... :laugh:

Star Trek's basis is the galaxy; there's a lot you could do there....

Yup... and why have yet another show that's even DARKER than DS9? But, again, that's just me.

There's an argument to be made there, but, if the stranded premise is the one you've decided on, then commit.

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

Yeah I kind of felt embarassed after I read my last post. How could I possibly think the studios ever listened to the fans regarding Trek? :P

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

Yeah I kind of felt embarassed after I read my last post. How could I possibly think the studios ever listened to the fans regarding Trek? :P

We are a bit like herding cats at times. :)

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

Yeah I kind of felt embarassed after I read my last post. How could I possibly think the studios ever listened to the fans regarding Trek? :P

We are a bit like herding cats at times. :)

I always say if you get 100 ST fans in a room to talk about it, you'll get 100 very diverse opinions on why they love it.

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

The idea of a 'stranded ship' (aka "Gilligan's Island in Space") would've only had teeth if we saw the crew of Voyager really roughing it (ala Moore's brilliant BSG).

It would be an interesting contrast to the other shows if say, the uniforms weren't so spit-and-polish all the time (conserving laundry/replicator power) or maybe the holodecks were strictly rationed to just one or two days a week (with multiple crew members going in at a time to save energy and a limited time allotted for each group; and no nonsense about the holodecks having an independent power source... that's bulls#!t). Maybe dings on the outer hull that didn't compromise hull integrity could STAY there the following week. Maybe shuttlecraft (which should've been in limited supply) could've been used only for emergencies or evacuations; forcing the crew to either beam down more often or for the show to have more 'bottle' stories. Maybe there could've been severe crises with resources at some point, or perhaps an unwanted pregnancy or two (which would be an issue for a ship on strict rationing). Maybe Janeway would have to make more "Capt. Ransom" type decisions now and then. Maybe Voyager could've separated in battle more often; in an attempt to save the bulk of the crew (in case things went south). Maybe things wouldn't always be status quo by the end of the hour (?)....

In other words, have the show live up to its dark premise.

I don't think Voyager could separate.

I also agree that Voyager got away too clean for 7 years. It should have been like how banged up the NX-01 was by the end of season 3 of Enterprise (really banged up like Equinox would have been a bit much). And yes, it might have made for a more interesting take on Janeway to see her doing some questionable things to get home. Pretty bad when even Tuvok could see she was being stupid not taking an obvious chance at getting home in that first season story.

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

The idea of a 'stranded ship' (aka "Gilligan's Island in Space") would've only had teeth if we saw the crew of Voyager really roughing it (ala Moore's brilliant BSG).

It would be an interesting contrast to the other shows if say, the uniforms weren't so spit-and-polish all the time (conserving laundry/replicator power) or maybe the holodecks were strictly rationed to just one or two days a week (with multiple crew members going in at a time to save energy and a limited time allotted for each group; and no nonsense about the holodecks having an independent power source... that's bulls#!t). Maybe dings on the outer hull that didn't compromise hull integrity could STAY there the following week. Maybe shuttlecraft (which should've been in limited supply) could've been used only for emergencies or evacuations; forcing the crew to either beam down more often or for the show to have more 'bottle' stories. Maybe there could've been severe crises with resources at some point, or perhaps an unwanted pregnancy or two (which would be an issue for a ship on strict rationing). Maybe Janeway would have to make more "Capt. Ransom" type decisions now and then. Maybe Voyager could've separated in battle more often; in an attempt to save the bulk of the crew (in case things went south). Maybe things wouldn't always be status quo by the end of the hour (?)....

In other words, have the show live up to its dark premise.

I don't think Voyager could separate.

I also agree that Voyager got away too clean for 7 years. It should have been like how banged up the NX-01 was by the end of season 3 of Enterprise (really banged up like Equinox would have been a bit much). And yes, it might have made for a more interesting take on Janeway to see her doing some questionable things to get home. Pretty bad when even Tuvok could see she was being stupid not taking an obvious chance at getting home in that first season story.

A situation easily remedied!

Leave an timed cobalt explosive on the array which would detonate after you've used it to get home.

That way, the array doesn't fall into the hands of the Klingon--er, Kazon Oogie Boogie (or whatever they were called) and the Ocampa are no more or less screwed than they were before.

You get the ship home and preserve the Prime Directive (remember; the fate of the Ocampa are NOT Voyager's concern). A first year cadet could've got Voyager home in the pilot episode....

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Vie is quite right. Getting them home in the pilot was an insanely simple matter when you have the leverage against your enemy that comes with him not wanting to destroy the device you need to get home.

Edited by prometheus59650

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The fact that they couldn't get the pilot episode right in ANY way should've been indication enough that SOMETHING was just not quite right. I mean the other pilots aren't masterpieces either (except for "The Cage" but I'm biased because CAPTAIN PIKE IS LOVE) but all of them DO show at least SOME potential in SOME way. VOY's pilot episode, on the other hand... just showed Janeway being WTF. lol

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The fact that they couldn't get the pilot episode right in ANY way should've been indication enough that SOMETHING was just not quite right. I mean the other pilots aren't masterpieces either (except for "The Cage" but I'm biased because CAPTAIN PIKE IS LOVE) but all of them DO show at least SOME potential in SOME way. VOY's pilot episode, on the other hand... just showed Janeway being WTF. lol

I was OK with her decision-making in the first hour, but in the second half she just does some weird stuff.

Her wheeling-dealing with the Kazon-Oogie-boogers (whatever).

Seriously? You're going to trust these Klingon/space pirate wannabes? Even if Neelix hadn't arranged the deal only to free Kes, it was still a d!ck move on Janeway's part to even think of negotiating with those guys (or even trusting Neelix for that matter; he double-crossed her for his own interests... who's to say he wouldn't do it again down the road? And he does at some point, as I recall...). And it always cracks me up when the aliens want water... the universe is FULL of water (in comets, asteroids, moons, everywhere; even in exoplanets). If they have spaceflight (or even know how to make a simple fuel cell)? They can get water.

Her decision to make the Maquis and Starfleet crew one STARFLEET crew... did the Maquis get a vote on this?? Never mind that Chakotay just sacrificed his ship to save their collective asses...

That whole array mess. Already covered it. Moving on...

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You all - of course - make good points.

Let me ask you this - do you think that if a few more years went by, that VOY could have turned out better? As in - they'd feel a bit more comfortable taking risks? ENT took a healthy dose of risks and they got a lot of crap for it. Plus, VOY would probably be seen as a copy of BSG but done more timidly if it was made later on. The same way DS9 was accused of being a Babylon 5 knock off.

But I am wondering if you all think that VOY would have suffered or prospered if it had been made maybe....a couple years AFTER DS9's run.

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One thing I've heard over and over in the past ten years is that there was "too much Star Trek" at some point. There ARE a lot fans who say the franchise should have taken a break after DS9 and gotten a fresh start a few years later with different people in charge who could have brought in fresh ideas instead of re-hashing previous episode plots like VOY and ENT loved to do. Maybe this WOULD have helped - but only if it had been different people in charge. I don't know enough about other sci fi shows to comment on the copy issue, though...

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One thing I've heard over and over in the past ten years is that there was "too much Star Trek" at some point. There ARE a lot fans who say the franchise should have taken a break after DS9 and gotten a fresh start a few years later with different people in charge who could have brought in fresh ideas instead of re-hashing previous episode plots like VOY and ENT loved to do. Maybe this WOULD have helped - but only if it had been different people in charge. I don't know enough about other sci fi shows to comment on the copy issue, though...

I am one of the believers in the saturation theory.

I'm not saying there was too much ST necessarily, but after 18 years of it, 750 episodes, 25 seasons and at least four TNG era movies (!) all by the same production crew (more or less), some fatigue is bound to set in. It's only natural that they'd start copying themselves....

You all - of course - make good points.

Let me ask you this - do you think that if a few more years went by, that VOY could have turned out better? As in - they'd feel a bit more comfortable taking risks? ENT took a healthy dose of risks and they got a lot of crap for it. Plus, VOY would probably be seen as a copy of BSG but done more timidly if it was made later on. The same way DS9 was accused of being a Babylon 5 knock off.

With BSG coming after Voyager's run (almost 2 years later)? I imagine if VGR were done with more guts, they might've said BSG was a VGR clone.... :laugh:

Ron Moore sprinkled some kind of magic on BSG (and the story lent itself better to that vision), but it's also arguable (trying to be fair here) that a BSGd VGR wouldn't really be ST anymore.

That said? I still wish VGR had at least been told more honestly; with the jeopardy it introduced in the pilot not being so easily sidelined when it became inconvenient. One week they're rationing, next week they're gulping power. One week they say they only have 38 torpedoes, and soon they seem to have an unlimited supply (this from a ship that's rationing its replicator power...). And don't get me started on the shuttles....

If they only remained true to the (admittedly interesting) premise, it could've been a much bolder ST. In a way, I'm almost glad they didn't; it left the stage wide open for BSG to do the honors...

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One thing I've heard over and over in the past ten years is that there was "too much Star Trek" at some point. There ARE a lot fans who say the franchise should have taken a break after DS9 and gotten a fresh start a few years later with different people in charge who could have brought in fresh ideas instead of re-hashing previous episode plots like VOY and ENT loved to do. Maybe this WOULD have helped - but only if it had been different people in charge. I don't know enough about other sci fi shows to comment on the copy issue, though...

I am one of the believers in the saturation theory.

I'm not saying there was too much ST necessarily, but after 18 years of it, 750 episodes, 25 seasons and at least four TNG era movies (!) all by the same production crew (more or less), some fatigue is bound to set in. It's only natural that they'd start copying themselves....

You all - of course - make good points.

Let me ask you this - do you think that if a few more years went by, that VOY could have turned out better? As in - they'd feel a bit more comfortable taking risks? ENT took a healthy dose of risks and they got a lot of crap for it. Plus, VOY would probably be seen as a copy of BSG but done more timidly if it was made later on. The same way DS9 was accused of being a Babylon 5 knock off.

With BSG coming after Voyager's run (almost 2 years later)? I imagine if VGR were done with more guts, they might've said BSG was a VGR clone.... :laugh:

Ron Moore sprinkled some kind of magic on BSG (and the story lent itself better to that vision), but it's also arguable (trying to be fair here) that a BSGd VGR wouldn't really be ST anymore.

That said? I still wish VGR had at least been told more honestly; with the jeopardy it introduced in the pilot not being so easily sidelined when it became inconvenient. One week they're rationing, next week they're gulping power. One week they say they only have 38 torpedoes, and soon they seem to have an unlimited supply (this from a ship that's rationing its replicator power...). And don't get me started on the shuttles....

If they only remained true to the (admittedly interesting) premise, it could've been a much bolder ST. In a way, I'm almost glad they didn't; it left the stage wide open for BSG to do the honors...

Yes, Voyager was basically a collection of short stories. It was obvious to the viewer that it wasn't the same writers every week, some details would be wrong. One week they're rationing, the next they are hanging on the holodeck without a care. With that kind of disconnect, of course it was going to be hard to nail down inventories, but lets not pretend that all the other series weren't guilty of this as well from time to time. 'A resource is about to run out, and just in the nick of time....' is a well worn Trek/Sci Fi theme. Voyager, and her 'full compliment' of shuttlecraft, just seemed to ignore these logical lapses rather than trying to explain it away.

If Voyager were done after DS9 starting in the early 00's, who knows? It most likely would have been serialized for starters. Even if they did this, and kept a perfect accounting of shuttles, torpedoes, and stayed consistent ie. a power shortage this week would still be in effect next week, there still would have been the wildcard of casting. A decade later, I doubt it's Mulgrew cast as the lead, but they would have needed to completely overhaul her character for people to like Janeway as captain. In fact, all of the characters save Seven and maybe The Doctor could have used rewrites.

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I am one of the believers in the saturation theory.

I'm not saying there was too much ST necessarily, but after 18 years of it, 750 episodes, 25 seasons and at least four TNG era movies (!) all by the same production crew (more or less), some fatigue is bound to set in. It's only natural that they'd start copying themselves....

I think I agree here. If, after DS9 they'd wiped the slate clean with a new production crew all around I don't think we'd be saying there was too much Trek. As it was there got to be too much "Bermanvision Trek.

If they only remained true to the (admittedly interesting) premise, it could've been a much bolder ST. In a way, I'm almost glad they didn't; it left the stage wide open for BSG to do the honors...

I think you can have the problems of rationing and trying just to make your way home without becoming morose. Voyasger could have done its job without becoming bogged down in the darkness of it all.

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'A resource is about to run out, and just in the nick of time....' is a well worn Trek/Sci Fi theme.

Which I think can be forgiven ultimately for them as opposed to Voyager because for teh other shows the infrastructure exists overall to find the solution. When you're the sole island of humanity, it's a little different.

A decade later, I doubt it's Mulgrew cast as the lead, but they would have needed to completely overhaul her character for people to like Janeway as captain. In fact, all of the characters save Seven and maybe The Doctor could have used rewrites.

Agreed here on all counts.

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I've always said (and said back then) that there should have been a one year break between Voyager and Enterprise and dumped Berman and Braga.

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DS9 should have been allowed to finish its run alone, just as Voyager should have.

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Of course, they could have just kept DS9 going...(Well, would have made me happy). I know they would have lost some of the original cast had they gone past 7, but I trust it would have worked.

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I would have liked to have seen it go past 7, myself. At the very least, they could have used another 6 or 8 episodes to tie things up a bit better.

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Ron Moore and Davie Eicke made the new BSG much too dark to be Star Trek like. He had some good ideas,buti n 1995 there was no way the staff was going to take risks and say, make it darker, put them in harm's way, and make them run out of things all the time.

The fan reaction would have to have come from letters. The Internet was relatively new back then but there were conventions, many more than today.

I don't think Trek was too much back then. And DS9 was the 'darker show' so Voyager had to be 'lighter' at the expense of perhaps serialized story, and often, weird plots ending in a reset button. The reset was used so much it's called the Vaioyger button.

That said, just because some of you hated Neelix doesn't mean he was all that bad. He was trying to be Guinan or Quark and he wasn;t. They didn't know what to do with him.

Tuvix was a dumb episode. It wasn't that it was shocking to make a transporter hybrid and kill him. It was just a dumb idea. It was like the oppiosite of the two Kirk episode in classic Trek, except oh the twist is it's fusion. Ugh. Might as well do an episode where Paris turns into a lungfish...oh wait.

Yeah they had some clunkers on Lost in Space the Star Trek years, but they did get home, unlike Lost in Space.

The confusion with the characters, especially Janeway, ariswes in their not being consistent from week to week and sometimes she's like Ripley while other times she's Mommy Dearist, or thinks she's Mrs. Columbo.

Ha.

Paris was originally like Locarno and like Kirk, but then ge gest domesticated and watches cartoons nobody's even heard of.

Moore couldn't have saved it. Ron has ideas sure, but he would have turned it all gloomy and depressing and it would have lasted one more season.

He does write good BSG and good Klingon stuff though.

I didn't get mad when Tuvix pleaded for his life because by that time I knew they would hit the reset button at the end, as it was an established thing, so I was like, okay they're not going to keep the guerst actor. They're going to write him out. Oh, there goes. It was really a bad episode actually because it forces you to like this guest star and then they kill him off. They could have just found some other way to write out the two of them, but that wasn't the plan. Philolips and Russ were on contract.

In later seasons they were all but ignored in a lot of episodes because the staff didn't know what to do with them.

Besides, the genetics of fusing two completely alien people together would have killed Tuvix in minutes not just hours, or whatever long it took, and they would have died anyway.

Janeway's blowing up the array probably killed hundreds of aliens when the debris rained down on that planet nearby.

She's kind of nuts.

Neelix and Kes was more lame. Come on. Even Phillips thought it was lame.

The actors can't control what the writers do. They just pick up a check.

The fans can't control what the writers did. Hindsight is wonderful.

It's just fortunate they got home and all.

Voyager was better than Enterprise. Dimishing returns.

Even so, Trek was not saturating everything. I liked it just fine that it went mainstream and we fans were no longer considered outcast for being nerdy or into scifi. Then we wore it as a badge of honor. Star Trek Lives and all.

Then we were not able to save Enterprise.

Some Voyager I will still watch. I will however avoid Tuvix, Threshhold and the pilot.

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Besides, the genetics of fusing two completely alien people together would have killed Tuvix in minutes not just hours, or whatever long it took, and they would have died anyway.

A transporter beam itself would kill you. Let alone hybridize you...

Beyond the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, the simple problem of bombarding living tissue with enough energy to break it apart at the subatomic level (!!) would not only interrupt, but completely disrupt life functions.

You're pretty much dead the moment you step into that damn thing. The most it could do would be to 'fax' your genetic information and build a 'new you' at an identical receiving station somewhere else.

But you'd be a clone of you, not the real you...

The idea of the transporter is a fantasy concoction; no matter 'real' than the force or light sabers. So the argument of how it 'really' works is pretty much nullified...

But back to VGR:

That said, just because some of you hated Neelix doesn't mean he was all that bad.

No, you're right.... he was about 137 times worse.

Seriously, I hate Neelix with the same venom and zeal that I loathe Jar Jar Binks.

Two times I found Neelix watchable; when the Vidians took his lungs (point: Vidians! :thumbup: ) and when Tuvok strangled Neelix's holodeck doppelgänger in "Meld" (Best. VGR. Scene. EVER!).

Not trying to troll here, but he was almost enough to make me stop watching altogether. And his 'creepy uncle' relationship with Kes was borderline ugly to watch.

It's like watching Kate Upton getting her ear licked by Breaking Bad's Hector Salamanca...

reallycreepyguy340-350x0.jpgvideo-undefined-1A360BD600000578-463_636x358.jpg

I will admit, there are about a dozen or so VGR episodes that are still kind of watchable; mostly Seven or Doctor-centric episodes ("Drone" being my favorite).

But the vast majority of it is really just not my thing at all. The premise was intriguing, but the execution was so bungled and uneven that it just pains me to watch it.

You can tell the actors weren't really digging it, either...

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Ron Moore and Davie Eicke made the new BSG much too dark to be Star Trek like.

Good, since he wasn't trying in the slightest to make BSG like Star Trek. If you want to label it, "post 9.11 allegory" fits, but he wasn't trying to make it like Trek to start with.

He had some good ideas,buti n 1995 there was no way the staff was going to take risks and say, make it darker, put them in harm's way, and make them run out of things all the time.

Then that's the staff's (and the viewers') loss. If they aren't going to be in harm's way and have resource issues, then you have no real reason to get out there and try to tell people how new and different your show is going to be from anything before it because this ship and crew will be alone in unexplored space without a safety net.

If you're not even going to try to adhere to your premise, just put them in the Alpha Quadrant and play in the TNG sandbox.

That said, just because some of you hated Neelix doesn't mean he was all that bad.

Depends on who you ask because everyone has opinions. I, for one, found this character that Berman was so sure everyone was going to love, quite detestable. Guinan and Quark were among the best characters their respective shows had to offer for a variety of reasons, but that all boils down to opinion, too.

Tuvix was a dumb episode. It wasn't that it was shocking to make a transporter hybrid and kill him. It was just a dumb idea. It was like the oppiosite of the two Kirk episode in classic Trek, except oh the twist is it's fusion.

It wasn't dumb. It actually set up some interesting character questions in addition to the moral dilemma. The problem is that it answered the dilemma in a way that made the crew look, to a man, like the murderers that they were.

Yeah they had some clunkers on Lost in Space the Star Trek years, but they did get home, unlike Lost in Space.

In the last two minutes of the finale in such an abrupt fashion that Ryan, Picardo, and Dawson, the latter two having had directorial experience found unsatisfying and said it was something they never would have done.

Moore couldn't have saved it. Ron has ideas sure, but he would have turned it all gloomy and depressing and it would have lasted one more season.

He probably would have pulled it closer to "Year of Hell," which is what TPTB claimed the show was going to be to begin with.

Besides, the genetics of fusing two completely alien people together would have killed Tuvix in minutes not just hours, or whatever long it took, and they would have died anyway.

Except that the transporter merge was complete. Tuvix was healthy.

Janeway's blowing up the array probably killed hundreds of aliens when the debris rained down on that planet nearby.

The Caretaker Array didn't orbit the planet, It wasn't anywhere near it. It just pumped energy across space to the Ocampa. Even if it had, what makes you think the debris wouldn't have burned up in the atmosphere. Was there some bit of plot that you remember that I don't? Not trying to snark. Serious question.

Voyager was better than Enterprise. Dimishing returns.

Enterprise was superior overall. Because opinions,

Edited by prometheus59650

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Two times I found Neelix watchable; when the Vidians took his lungs (point: Vidians! :thumbup: ) and when Tuvok

That was a really good episode overall. Great new race, Neelix and the Doctor have some good lines, and Neelix isn't acting like Neelix.

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