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The Founder

Star Trek: Voyager versus Ronal D. Moore

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http://trekmovie.com/2008/06/21/exclusive-interview-ron-moore-fighting-the-trek-cliches/

"Ron Moore: Yah…probably…when I was on my brief tenure on Voyager and I was starting to think in terms of what I wanted to do, I remember sitting with the writing staff and saying ‘I really think…that when Voyager gets damaged it should get damaged, we should stop repairing the ship, the ship should be broken down more and devolving a little bit more.’ One of the ideas I had is that they should start developing their own culture within the starship and letting go of Starfleet protocols and stop thinking of themselves as Starfleet people on some level, even though they still wear the uniform and still try to adhere to the regulations. I thought it would be interesting that by the time this ship got back to Earth, that it didn’t even belong at Earth anymore. That it sort of had become its own culture, it had formed its own civilization which was dissimilar to that which they had left behind…"

Why couldn't they have listened to him? Why?

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Part of me understands why they didn't listen - they wanted to get away from 'dark Trek' (and by that they fell into the other extreme and created a series that tried to be more TNG than TNG itself), and a permanently damaged ship and a crew that threw most Starfleet regulations out of the airlock was not the way to do that.

HOWEVER. Moore IS right.

The fault here is the premise of the show itself. You can't strand a ship in another quadrant and then make it look as good as new at the beginning of every episode when the next Federation starbase is zillions of lightyears away. You can't pull shuttles out of your hat like rabbits when the ship has only one or two of them in the first place and NO energy to spare to replicate tons of parts for new shuttles. You can't keep the holodeck running so that the captain have silly love affairs and at the same time have replicator rations. And so on and so on. Even I, being only a fan fic writer and not a television writer, realize this. The premise and the execution of that premise are what's at odds here. A stranded ship calls for spare parts, glue at the seams of everything, new rules and regulations that are designed to ensure SURVIVAL, not hold up Federation values. It calls for a captain who is not afraid to drop their own personal bias and feelings and is willing to do ANYTHING to get the crew home. A captain who has a CLEAR way of doing things, not one who dances around issues and lets their own feelings get in the way when another mood swing hits.

In short: With VOY, the idea and the result don't match. It was trying to be TNG in the Delta Quadrant, which was impossible in the first place because of the very things that Moore pointed out. He IS correct. They should have either dropped the 'stranded' idea OR they should have followed through with it, in ALL regards and thus made it actually believable.

Just my two cents, of course.

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Good point - no matter what - VOY's premise had to compromise something, but they didn't want to. They wanted to put them in the worst possible situation, but have TNG-esque solutions and reset button endings.

I don't understand why, though. I get that they wanted to move away from the "dark gritty" version of Trek. I remember in those days DS9 got so much crap for that. I am not at all surprised that they felt they need to go back to less controversial - TNG. It makes sense. But man that hurt VOY so much. What irritates me is that VOY didn't have to be "as dark" as DS9 (a dubious prospect in my opinion. DS9 is rather tame compared to say...BSG).

I'm not even for Janeway being a Captain Ransom-esque character. I am all for the Federation half of the ship fighting tooth and nail to stick to their morality. Hell - maybe there are even some lines the Maquis wouldn't cross either. But the problem was they tried to have it both ways:

Either the problem that could be solved through morally questionable means was solved easily and neatly

or

They did do evil things (see Tuvix) but it was glossed over.

Which is it going to be? Are they going to be "dark" or are they going to be perfect?

A quick addendum?

I think Tuvix is more disturbing, questionable, and evil than anything in DS9. Even Sisko poisoning that planet or tricking the Romulans into a war they would have gotten involved in anyways.

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I think the writers themselves probably didn't know exactly what to do most of the time (hence the 'today we love Federation values, tomorrow we'll ignore them' dilemma that Janeway displayed). They probably had orders to not compromise TOO many Federation values and yet at the same time they were faced with the fact of the ship being stuck in the Delta Quadrant and well, there HAD to be SOME darkness, not every alien species is friendly, after all.

That probably also led to the whole mess of "which one is it going to be, you can't have both".

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All of these posts of Founder and Mr. Picard state my position on VGR so eloquently I can just do this....

giphy.gif

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http://trekmovie.com...e-trek-cliches/

"Ron Moore: Yah…probably…when I was on my brief tenure on Voyager and I was starting to think in terms of what I wanted to do, I remember sitting with the writing staff and saying ‘I really think…that when Voyager gets damaged it should get damaged, we should stop repairing the ship, the ship should be broken down more and devolving a little bit more.’ One of the ideas I had is that they should start developing their own culture within the starship and letting go of Starfleet protocols and stop thinking of themselves as Starfleet people on some level, even though they still wear the uniform and still try to adhere to the regulations. I thought it would be interesting that by the time this ship got back to Earth, that it didn’t even belong at Earth anymore. That it sort of had become its own culture, it had formed its own civilization which was dissimilar to that which they had left behind…"

THIS

That's it. Nothing short of a perfect summation of what Voyager should've been but didn't have the iron to be.

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http://trekmovie.com...e-trek-cliches/

"Ron Moore: Yah…probably…when I was on my brief tenure on Voyager and I was starting to think in terms of what I wanted to do, I remember sitting with the writing staff and saying ‘I really think…that when Voyager gets damaged it should get damaged, we should stop repairing the ship, the ship should be broken down more and devolving a little bit more.’ One of the ideas I had is that they should start developing their own culture within the starship and letting go of Starfleet protocols and stop thinking of themselves as Starfleet people on some level, even though they still wear the uniform and still try to adhere to the regulations. I thought it would be interesting that by the time this ship got back to Earth, that it didn’t even belong at Earth anymore. That it sort of had become its own culture, it had formed its own civilization which was dissimilar to that which they had left behind…"

THIS

That's it. Nothing short of a perfect summation of what Voyager should've been but didn't have the iron to be.

In other words, it should've been 2003's Battlestar Galactica! :thumbup:

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I think the writers themselves probably didn't know exactly what to do most of the time (hence the 'today we love Federation values, tomorrow we'll ignore them' dilemma that Janeway displayed). They probably had orders to not compromise TOO many Federation values and yet at the same time they were faced with the fact of the ship being stuck in the Delta Quadrant and well, there HAD to be SOME darkness, not every alien species is friendly, after all.

That probably also led to the whole mess of "which one is it going to be, you can't have both".

You're right. They clearly did not know what they wanted.

All of these posts of Founder and Mr. Picard state my position on VGR so eloquently I can just do this....

giphy.gif

The things Mr. Picard and I do for you! :P

http://trekmovie.com...e-trek-cliches/

"Ron Moore: Yah…probably…when I was on my brief tenure on Voyager and I was starting to think in terms of what I wanted to do, I remember sitting with the writing staff and saying ‘I really think…that when Voyager gets damaged it should get damaged, we should stop repairing the ship, the ship should be broken down more and devolving a little bit more.’ One of the ideas I had is that they should start developing their own culture within the starship and letting go of Starfleet protocols and stop thinking of themselves as Starfleet people on some level, even though they still wear the uniform and still try to adhere to the regulations. I thought it would be interesting that by the time this ship got back to Earth, that it didn’t even belong at Earth anymore. That it sort of had become its own culture, it had formed its own civilization which was dissimilar to that which they had left behind…"

THIS

That's it. Nothing short of a perfect summation of what Voyager should've been but didn't have the iron to be.

I'm honestly not saying this to try and take credit - but his "ending" idea is what I thought of years ago. I always felt that after the Dominion War - the UFP was radically different from what the VOY crew left behind. So when they returned - I thought it'd be much more poetic that they realize that VOY was their home and that it had always been about the journey together. The Earth they had returned to was no longer the one they wanted to be in. Thus - they jet off into the unknown together. Much more fitting then them coming home and Janeway IMMEDIATELY rushing off to become Admiral and leave her "family" behind.

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I'm honestly not saying this to try and take credit - but his "ending" idea is what I thought of years ago. I always felt that after the Dominion War - the UFP was radically different from what the VOY crew left behind. So when they returned - I thought it'd be much more poetic that they realize that VOY was their home and that it had always been about the journey together. The Earth they had returned to was no longer the one they wanted to be in. Thus - they jet off into the unknown together. Much more fitting then them coming home and Janeway IMMEDIATELY rushing off to become Admiral and leave her "family" behind.

But being the undiagnosed psychopath that she is, it makes perfect sense that she'd ditch those losers as quickly as possible. :laugh:

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Part of me understands why they didn't listen - they wanted to get away from 'dark Trek' (and by that they fell into the other extreme and created a series that tried to be more TNG than TNG itself), and a permanently damaged ship and a crew that threw most Starfleet regulations out of the airlock was not the way to do that.

HOWEVER. Moore IS right.

The fault here is the premise of the show itself. You can't strand a ship in another quadrant and then make it look as good as new at the beginning of every episode when the next Federation starbase is zillions of lightyears away. You can't pull shuttles out of your hat like rabbits when the ship has only one or two of them in the first place and NO energy to spare to replicate tons of parts for new shuttles. You can't keep the holodeck running so that the captain have silly love affairs and at the same time have replicator rations. And so on and so on. Even I, being only a fan fic writer and not a television writer, realize this. The premise and the execution of that premise are what's at odds here. A stranded ship calls for spare parts, glue at the seams of everything, new rules and regulations that are designed to ensure SURVIVAL, not hold up Federation values. It calls for a captain who is not afraid to drop their own personal bias and feelings and is willing to do ANYTHING to get the crew home. A captain who has a CLEAR way of doing things, not one who dances around issues and lets their own feelings get in the way when another mood swing hits.

In short: With VOY, the idea and the result don't match. It was trying to be TNG in the Delta Quadrant, which was impossible in the first place because of the very things that Moore pointed out. He IS correct. They should have either dropped the 'stranded' idea OR they should have followed through with it, in ALL regards and thus made it actually believable.

Just my two cents, of course.

They kind of touched on that with Equinox, where that crew did whatever it took and of course it backfires. I agree with what you said though, Janeway's Voyager almost treated it like a routine patrol through close-to-Federation space. 'Oh, let's stop at this anomaly' etc... Even the Borg weren't as big of a deal anymore. They came back unscathed, unscratched and with Borg modified defenses that were a few decades advanced of the Federation's best defenses.

I think that I would have preferred that they had found a wormhole or something around season 3 and escalate the show by getting the Federation and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant races involved in sending ships to the Delta Quadrant. Oh yeah, and more multi-episode archs. would have been nice.

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The fault here is the premise of the show itself. You can't strand a ship in another quadrant and then make it look as good as new at the beginning of every episode when the next Federation starbase is zillions of lightyears away. You can't pull shuttles out of your hat like rabbits when the ship has only one or two of them in the first place and NO energy to spare to replicate tons of parts for new shuttles. You can't keep the holodeck running so that the captain have silly love affairs and at the same time have replicator rations.

But...but.... the Holodeck power sources were incompatible with the rest of the ship. Excuse me a moment...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

If Geordi and Data can figure out how to power a shuttlecraft that's temporally out of synch with the rest of the ship, Harry Kim and Torres can build a straight up adapter.

Let Neelix wheel and deal. Let him actually do something relevant.

By the time they got home the ship should have been radically different. Seven's Borg enhancements to the ship should have stayed. There should have been a Viidian helm console and and a Hirogen warp core. The ship should have reflected their situation. It didn't.

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think Tuvix is more disturbing, questionable, and evil than anything in DS9.

The actions in Tuvix actually disgust me. Openly disgust me. They murdered a man to attempt to recover two that were already dead.

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I think that I would have preferred that they had found a wormhole or something around season 3 and escalate the show by getting the Federation

They should have just done what they danced around with the show throughout anyway. They should have gotten home in S3 or 4 and just explored the Alpha Quadrant. They should have just been TNG Deux and been done with it.

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think Tuvix is more disturbing, questionable, and evil than anything in DS9.

The actions in Tuvix actually disgust me. Openly disgust me. They murdered a man to attempt to recover two that were already dead.

I even think they use the whole "cold numbers" logic on Tuvix. Why have only one guy when you can get two for the price of one? At least with DS9 they could claim "it's war. We have to do what we must for the good of all!"

In the case of Tuvix, they even admit he's superior to both men, they just want them back. They couldn't hide behind any moral arguments.

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think Tuvix is more disturbing, questionable, and evil than anything in DS9.

The actions in Tuvix actually disgust me. Openly disgust me. They murdered a man to attempt to recover two that were already dead.

I even think they use the whole "cold numbers" logic on Tuvix. Why have only one guy when you can get two for the price of one? At least with DS9 they could claim "it's war. We have to do what we must for the good of all!"

In the case of Tuvix, they even admit he's superior to both men, they just want them back. They couldn't hide behind any moral arguments.

The end scene where he's flitting desperately around the bridge literally begging for help and begging for his life. Gah.

They can't even look him in the face for damn good reason.

But, hey, next week everything's fine.

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think Tuvix is more disturbing, questionable, and evil than anything in DS9.

The actions in Tuvix actually disgust me. Openly disgust me. They murdered a man to attempt to recover two that were already dead.

I even think they use the whole "cold numbers" logic on Tuvix. Why have only one guy when you can get two for the price of one? At least with DS9 they could claim "it's war. We have to do what we must for the good of all!"

In the case of Tuvix, they even admit he's superior to both men, they just want them back. They couldn't hide behind any moral arguments.

The end scene where he's flitting desperately around the bridge literally begging for help and begging for his life. Gah.

They can't even look him in the face for damn good reason.

But, hey, next week everything's fine.

That's the central disappointment of VGR for me; the show that should've upset the status quo the most became all about just maintaining it.

No matter what drama or upheaval occurs? It's just hunky dory by the following week...

And yes, Tuvix was murdered.

I can't watch the scene where he is pleading for his life on the bridge; it is one of the few moments of VGR (besides "Drone" that actually moves me, and reinforces my loathing of Janeway).

Not to mention the fact that I liked the actor (Tom Wright) who played Tuvix much, much more than Ethan Phillips (who just annoys the s#!t out of me).

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think Tuvix is more disturbing, questionable, and evil than anything in DS9.

The actions in Tuvix actually disgust me. Openly disgust me. They murdered a man to attempt to recover two that were already dead.

I even think they use the whole "cold numbers" logic on Tuvix. Why have only one guy when you can get two for the price of one? At least with DS9 they could claim "it's war. We have to do what we must for the good of all!"

In the case of Tuvix, they even admit he's superior to both men, they just want them back. They couldn't hide behind any moral arguments.

The end scene where he's flitting desperately around the bridge literally begging for help and begging for his life. Gah.

They can't even look him in the face for damn good reason.

But, hey, next week everything's fine.

That's the central disappointment of VGR for me; the show that should've upset the status quo the most became all about just maintaining it.

No matter what drama or upheaval occurs? It's just hunky dory by the following week...

And yes, Tuvix was murdered.

I can't watch the scene where he is pleading for his life on the bridge; it is one of the few moments of VGR (besides "Drone" that actually moves me, and reinforces my loathing of Janeway).

Not to mention the fact that I liked the actor (Tom Wright) who played Tuvix much, much more than Ethan Phillips (who just annoys the s#!t out of me).

TPTB would say we're we're judging Voyager by the standards of today. That audiences back then weren't ready for serialization and the like, but even "BOBW" had "Family"

Yeah. Not a Neelix fan. He's so loud and cloying. I "loved" how in one episode he tried to give the crew "a taste of home" and then proceeded to butcher the recipes because improvement and he doesn't even really grasp how insulting it could be.

One of my biggest disappointments was that one episode where Tuvok strangles Neelix with his bare hands. I knew it would be, of course, yet I was still a little sad when it was shown to be a Holodeck simulation.

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TPTB would say we're we're judging Voyager by the standards of today. That audiences back then weren't ready for serialization and the like, but even "BOBW" had "Family"

BoBW also had "I, Borg" and "First Contact." ;)

And even Buffy was doing serialized TV around the same time, so that's not much of an excuse really. VGR had the opportunity to break new ground.

This was a show that could've been the forerunner of 2003's BSG; instead it followed 1965's "Lost In Space."

Yeah. Not a Neelix fan. He's so loud and cloying. I "loved" how in one episode he tried to give the crew "a taste of home" and then proceeded to butcher the recipes because improvement and he doesn't even really grasp how insulting it could be.

Not to mention what if Neelix poisoned the crew? Humans have many commonalities with dogs; we're both mammals, we have incisor teeth, we're both from the planet Earth and we both have four-legged ancestors. Yet they can't eat chocolate; it's literally poisonous to them. Neelix is a being from another part of the freaking galaxy; goodness knows what kind of crazy crap in his recipe book would be like warmed-over ebola virus to humans. We've seen the crew have bad reactions to his concoctions on the show (hell, it was a f**king running joke!) yet he is allowed to keep cooking for the crew! WTF?!? Was that some kind of gastrointestinal punishment for the crew from Janeway??

I never understood that.

On the Enterprise, if someone were bad at their job they would (presumably) be replaced by someone who is not.

But on Voyager? They're just allowed to keep screwing the pooch (and probably eating it, too) because it's 'funny' to serve miserable food to a stranded crew in deep space....

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I completely agree with everything you all said about Tuvix - especially the gut-wrenching scene where the entire VOY crew do nothing to help him. Except for the EMH (what? I gotta defend the EMH!). Plus - the irritation of Neelix poisoning the crew as a joke. I do think Janeway did it to keep her crew in line. Notice how she and Chakotay always ate replicator dinners and not Neelix's dinners? Hmmmm....:P

You know, back to Ronald Moore, I think his idea is great and so do others. Know how I know this? Because Year of Hell two parter is considered two of the best episodes in VOY - even by those that are "meh" about the show as a whole. Coincedence? YoH is cited as "what VOY should have been the entire time!" I wonder if the studios read that and how they felt - knowing their idea of maintaining the status quo was absolutely hated...

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I completely agree with everything you all said about Tuvix - especially the gut-wrenching scene where the entire VOY crew do nothing to help him. Except for the EMH (what? I gotta defend the EMH!). Plus - the irritation of Neelix poisoning the crew as a joke. I do think Janeway did it to keep her crew in line. Notice how she and Chakotay always ate replicator dinners and not Neelix's dinners? Hmmmm.... :P

You know, back to Ronald Moore, I think his idea is great and so do others. Know how I know this? Because Year of Hell two parter is considered two of the best episodes in VOY - even by those that are "meh" about the show as a whole. Coincedence? YoH is cited as "what VOY should have been the entire time!" I wonder if the studios read that and how they felt - knowing their idea of maintaining the status quo was absolutely hated...

And even "Year Of Hell" resets everything back to status quo!

A two-part episode where VGR gets the hell shook out of it... but by the end, all the uniforms are spotless. :laugh:

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

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I doubt anyone in charge listened to negative comments. They conveniently ignored them with ENT as well until it was it too late, after all. That's probably also why Moore wasn't listened to - they didn't want anyone to 'mess up' their 'brilliant' idea of TNG-In-The-Delta-Quadrant that made no sense in the first place.

The idea of a 'stranded ship' (aka "Gilligan's Island in Space") would've only had teeth if we saw the crew of Voyager really roughing it (ala Moore's brilliant BSG).

It would be an interesting contrast to the other shows if say, the uniforms weren't so spit-and-polish all the time (conserving laundry/replicator power) or maybe the holodecks were strictly rationed to just one or two days a week (with multiple crew members going in at a time to save energy and a limited time allotted for each group; and no nonsense about the holodecks having an independent power source... that's bulls#!t). Maybe dings on the outer hull that didn't compromise hull integrity could STAY there the following week. Maybe shuttlecraft (which should've been in limited supply) could've been used only for emergencies or evacuations; forcing the crew to either beam down more often or for the show to have more 'bottle' stories. Maybe there could've been severe crises with resources at some point, or perhaps an unwanted pregnancy or two (which would be an issue for a ship on strict rationing). Maybe Janeway would have to make more "Capt. Ransom" type decisions now and then. Maybe Voyager could've separated in battle more often; in an attempt to save the bulk of the crew (in case things went south). Maybe things wouldn't always be status quo by the end of the hour (?)....

In other words, have the show live up to its dark premise.

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I guess I'm (once again, haha) the only one who would have told them to drop the dark premise and just think of something else, lol.

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I guess I'm (once again, haha) the only one who would have told them to drop the dark premise and just think of something else, lol.

Or there's that.... :laugh:

Star Trek's basis is the galaxy; there's a lot you could do there....

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I guess I'm (once again, haha) the only one who would have told them to drop the dark premise and just think of something else, lol.

Or there's that.... :laugh:

Star Trek's basis is the galaxy; there's a lot you could do there....

Yup... and why have yet another show that's even DARKER than DS9? But, again, that's just me.

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