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Who lost the most crew under their command?

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  1. 1. What is your overall favorite Star Trek series?

    • Star Trek: Enterprise
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  2. 2. What is your overall favorite Star Trek movie?

    • Star Trek - I: The Motion Picture
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    • Star Trek - IX: Insurrection
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    • Star Trek - X: Nemesis
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So I was thinking about this after answering a question in another topic.

Which captain lost the most people under their command? I don't just mean major characters (Tasha Yar or Jadzia Dax). I mean, everyone. Including civilians they were trying to save, red shirts, etc. The whole nine yards.

Again, this isn't a who was the best or worst captain topic. Just who lost the most people while they were in command...

This one is hard for me as a Sisko fanboy, but I have to lean towards him. He must have lost loads of people due to the Dominion War. If I include the times he commanded an entire fleet of ships (technicality) then he must have the highest count (unless Archer led fleets during the Romulan-Earth War). :P

What do you all think?

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So I was thinking about this after answering a question in another topic.

Which captain lost the most people under their command? I don't just mean major characters (Tasha Yar or Jadzia Dax). I mean, everyone. Including civilians they were trying to save, red shirts, etc. The whole nine yards.

Again, this isn't a who was the best or worst captain topic. Just who lost the most people while they were in command...

This one is hard for me as a Sisko fanboy, but I have to lean towards him. He must have lost loads of people due to the Dominion War. If I include the times he commanded an entire fleet of ships (technicality) then he must have the highest count (unless Archer led fleets during the Romulan-Earth War). :P

What do you all think?

I think you're right with Sisko (and for the reason you gave), but if we go by the 'ship shows'? I'd have to say either Archer or Picard; unless VGR's "Year of Hell" would count (but it doesn't, I suppose; f**king reset button! :P ). Kirk lost a bunch of red shirts in TOS ("Obsession" comes to mind; five in one outing, if I recall) but in "Q Who" Picard lost 18 in one episode; not to mention those who died in the starship collision of NEM (you KNOW there were some serious casualties when half the bridge was gone!). Archer lost a s#!t-load of crew in S3 of ENT as well, and he had less than 200.

Picard also had the largest crew (over 1,000), so I wonder if we should be basing this on percentages, rather than head counts?

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I'd need to do the math before I vote... this is about math, not which captain I like better. As they say, the math never lies. :laugh:

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Taking out war scenarios (because Sisko would win hands down then) I think they're all evenly matched. Kirk lost redshirts periodically, Picard didn't often lose crew, but if he did lose any it was usually 18 at a time. (Q Who and BOBW come to mind here). Sisko was a bit like Kirk in that he too would occasionally lose someone but then there'd be the odd mission where 5 or 6 would do at once (The Ship for example).

Most of Voyager's losses came about because of the Caretaker and most of Archer's losses came while fighting the Xindi. Speaking of maths and percentages here, I do remember Reed having a meltdown because the mission casualties had crept beyond the supposed acceptable 20% towards the end of that year.

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Do we put the losses Locutus caused at Wolf 359 on Jean-Luc's "loss count"? I hope not... because... eeek. I don't think they count, though. It wasn't Jean-Luc's fault, after all and they weren't under his command either. I would lean towards Sisko as well here because of the Dominion War but it's tough to tell.

Also, isn't there another factor to pay attention to - how LONG someone's been in command? I know nothing about statistics, though... I can barely put 2 and 2 together. (Dyscalculia.)

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Isn't here anybody who knows the *exact* numbers of all deaths ever shown on tv by heart? ;)

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I've just had an evil thought .... does the destruction of Vulcan count against NuKirk? If it does then he's won this hands down then :P

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Are we just talking the five (or six) main captains? If not, Varley and Keogh of the Yamato and the Odyssey could probably claim the top spot together... :giggle:

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Are we just talking the five (or six) main captains? If not, Varley and Keogh of the Yamato and the Odyssey could probably claim the top spot together... :giggle:

But they went down with their ships :P Besides Keogh had the foresight to leave anyone non-essential back on DS9 beforehand to minimise casualties.

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I've just had an evil thought .... does the destruction of Vulcan count against NuKirk? If it does then he's won this hands down then :P

He wasn't in command at the time; technically Spock was (under Pike). Sorry... :cylonnono: Nice try, though. :P

Same for Locutus in BOBW; the deaths at Wolf 359 were not under Picard's command; technically Admiral Hansen was. Picard is blameless for that, as it was entirely against his will; just as a POW is blameless for breaking under torture.

And since I'm too lazy to do the math ( :laugh: ), I just voted for Sisko; I love Sisko, but he was a wartime captain, and he was in charge of multiple attack wings during the war (with massive casualties). The same rationale that makes Hansen to blame for Wolf 359 would also (fairly or not) implicate Sisko for the deaths suffered under his command (even attack wings) during the war.

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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I'd have thought somewhere between Picard, Sisko and Archer. Archer for those lost at Azati Prime and the Xindi episode in general, Picard for the various Borg encounters. But then God knows how many died in Into Darkness, the pummelling that ship took it'd be double the Kelvin.

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I would say (taking out war scenarios including Borg invasions) Kirk lost the most. Add Borg, than Picard. Add War scenarios including Borg invasions, Sisko (unless you want to count Locutus as legit Picard action, than he took out 11,000+ by his onsies).

As for Locutus: Picard was perceived as the face of the Borg and blamed by at least one Starfleet officer (Sisko) for the losses inflicted. Even later on, they tried to keep him out of action because he could turn. In many ways, it's the same as like say, a regular Nazi soldier. They were ordered to commit atrocities, and as soldiers they are honor bound to do their duty and follow orders. IN many ways, they were forced to do those actions. Of course, Locutus is a bit more of an extreme case of being forced into it, but Picard even says he didn't want to do it and tried to stop it but he couldn't. How many Nazi soldiers could say the same thing? I'm sure many of them didn't want to do the stuff they were ordered to and tried not to, only to watch their efforts be for naught.

Edited by Admiral Harmon

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EAS did a tally, I think a total of 52 redshirts died during the run of TOS. And that's not including people wearing other colours. I think Kirk is winning so far. :P

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EAS did a tally, I think a total of 52 redshirts died during the run of TOS. And that's not including people wearing other colours. I think Kirk is winning so far. :P

That's only just over 17. And anyone in any other color rarely died.

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I would say (taking out war scenarios including Borg invasions) Kirk lost the most. Add Borg, than Picard. Add War scenarios including Borg invasions, Sisko (unless you want to count Locutus as legit Picard action, than he took out 11,000+ by his onsies).

As for Locutus: Picard was perceived as the face of the Borg and blamed by at least one Starfleet officer (Sisko) for the losses inflicted. Even later on, they tried to keep him out of action because he could turn. In many ways, it's the same as like say, a regular Nazi soldier. They were ordered to commit atrocities, and as soldiers they are honor bound to do their duty and follow orders. IN many ways, they were forced to do those actions. Of course, Locutus is a bit more of an extreme case of being forced into it, but Picard even says he didn't want to do it and tried to stop it but he couldn't. How many Nazi soldiers could say the same thing? I'm sure many of them didn't want to do the stuff they were ordered to and tried not to, only to watch their efforts be for naught.

No, no, no.

Picard's will was totally subjugated by the Borg. He had no free will. He was only their human mouthpiece. Nazi soldiers (even Vichy French) were recruited and indoctrinated; it became a mindset. Picard NEVER had the choice. That's like blaming a POW for breaking under torture. Totally different. I would view Picard's 'cooperation' with the Borg as akin to a downed pilot in Vietnam reading a 'confession' on state run television. It's bulls#!t, and even the perpetrators know they aren't fooling anyone with it...

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Picard's will was totally subjugated by the Borg. He had no free will. He was only their human mouthpiece. Nazi soldiers (even Vichy French) were recruited and indoctrinated; it became a mindset.

In a way, the Borg's assimilation is like indoctrination. Only it's more complete. Indoctrination can be broken. The complete subjugation to the Collective can be broken, as we see time and again on Trek. Sisko however specifically hated Picard for the role he had at Wolf 359. He makes that quiet obvious until he is able to move past it with "The Emissary".

The Queen tried to turn him into her partner, but he resisted. He even says so. It was Picard who gave the prompting to put the Borg to sleep after Wolf 359. Not Riker or Crusher or Data, even if they got what he was meaning. It took time, but he eventually became able to resist and did so. He was instrumental in the defeat of the Borg for his small acts of defiance and by his suggestion, he was able to (through Riker) take out the Borg cube he had been on.

Edited by Admiral Harmon

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Picard's will was totally subjugated by the Borg. He had no free will. He was only their human mouthpiece. Nazi soldiers (even Vichy French) were recruited and indoctrinated; it became a mindset.

In a way, the Borg's assimilation is like indoctrination. Only it's more complete. Indoctrination can be broken. The complete subjugation to the Collective can be broken, as we see time and again on Trek. Sisko however specifically hated Picard for the role he had at Wolf 359. He makes that quiet obvious until he is able to move past it with "The Emissary".

The Queen tried to turn him into her partner, but he resisted. He even says so. It was Picard who gave the prompting to put the Borg to sleep after Wolf 359. Not Riker or Crusher or Data, even if they got what he was meaning. It took time, but he eventually became able to resist and did so. He was instrumental in the defeat of the Borg for his small acts of defiance and by his suggestion, he was able to (through Riker) take out the Borg cube he had been on.

He resisted, but ultimately he was NOT in control; he is blameless. They had overwhelmed his will. But Picard had NO CHOICE.

They controlled his very mind. He had only minimal resistance at best (and none that his body could obey). Again; my analogy to a downed pilot in Vietnam reading a confession stands. You can't put blame at a soldier who breaks under torture and Picard was tortured (it was total rape of both his mind and body... and his conscious will could only observe it as a third party). And Picard felt guilty enough over Wolf 359 (without Sisko's help).

The only way he was able to resist was when Data hacked into the Borg consciousness, and like Virgil to Dante in "The Inferno", acted as his guide out ....

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Even IF we decided to count Wolf 359 (I'm with Sehlat on this one, though, nope we don't)... Locutus didn't command any of the Starfleet vessels. He wasn't in charge of the fleet. The original question isn't 'which captain caused most deaths' (and even then I wouldn't count these 11,000) - it's 'who lost the most people under their COMMAND'.

So, actually, the only even vaguely possible 'lost under his command' ones we should be counting in this case are the Borg drones aboard the Cube. They were the ones Locutus commanded. (And who commanded him.) Locutus DESTROYED the Wolf 359 fleet but he didn't COMMAND it.

Not that I think Jean-Luc should be blamed for anything at Wolf 359. LOCUTUS was the one who did things. Those people who blamed Jean-Luc for what happened were just looking for a scapegoat. I understand their bitterness but they should direct it at the BORG, not Jean-Luc. I'm sure they would reconsider QUITE quickly if THEY were assimilated. How about THAT. See what it's like... let them lie there helplessly while their humanity is taken from them piece by piece... and THEN I'd love to hear more about how 'Picard is to blame for Wolf 359'...

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Even IF we decided to count Wolf 359 (I'm with Sehlat on this one, though, nope we don't)... Locutus didn't command any of the Starfleet vessels. He wasn't in charge of the fleet. The original question isn't 'which captain caused most deaths' (and even then I wouldn't count these 11,000) - it's 'who lost the most people under their COMMAND'.

So, actually, the only even vaguely possible 'lost under his command' ones we should be counting in this case are the Borg drones aboard the Cube. They were the ones Locutus commanded. (And who commanded him.) Locutus DESTROYED the Wolf 359 fleet but he didn't COMMAND it.

Not that I think Jean-Luc should be blamed for anything at Wolf 359. LOCUTUS was the one who did things. Those people who blamed Jean-Luc for what happened were just looking for a scapegoat. I understand their bitterness but they should direct it at the BORG, not Jean-Luc. I'm sure they would reconsider QUITE quickly if THEY were assimilated. How about THAT. See what it's like... let them lie there helplessly while their humanity is taken from them piece by piece... and THEN I'd love to hear more about how 'Picard is to blame for Wolf 359'...

RikerClapping.gif

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Sorry all - I probably should have made this more clear. I have an annoying habit of making topics with virtually no detail. Apologies.

I meant specifically under their command (officers). I probably shouldn't have included civilians (I was thinking Archer losing that Xindi mine worker when he was trying to escape with him). But that makes it convoluted. So I should just limit the purview to officers under their command. Locutus wouldn't count for two reasons - one it wasn't Picard and two those ships were not under his command at Wolf 359.

Also, I didn't mean people they've killed. Picard killing "Tuvok" in Starship Mine does not count because those terrorists weren't under his command.

Also, you guys made a persuasive argument. I guess it was dumb of me to include fleet battles with Sisko because that obviously pushes him into the lead no matter what. But I still think Sisko lost a lot of people (but as Sehlat Vie pointed out) percentages matter. Picard and Sisko had the most people under their command because one commanded a giant Galaxy-class starship and the other commanded a space station...

As for Kirk, I was toying with the idea of him as he lost so many red shirts, but I never knew if that was legit or an over exaggeration like Kirk bedding every single female in Trek history kind of thing.

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The thing about the whole "civilians don't count" idea is... well... it can be kinda hard to tell for the Enterprise-D if officers or civilians were lost. For example, those 18 people in "Q Who?". It is never stated whether they are civilians or officers. It's just said that there were 18 people in that section. Jean-Luc refers to them as "members of my crew", but he tends to include civilians in that one because, well, they ARE members of the crew even though they aren't officers. Also, if you take a close look at the section the Borg pull out with their cutting beam, it looks like living quarters - areas where civilians are during combat situations.

tl;dr: Stuff like this makes things difficult to determine, especially for the Enterprise-D since she carries a lot of civilians.

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The thing about the whole "civilians don't count" idea is... well... it can be kinda hard to tell for the Enterprise-D if officers or civilians were lost. For example, those 18 people in "Q Who?". It is never stated whether they are civilians or officers. It's just said that there were 18 people in that section. Jean-Luc refers to them as "members of my crew", but he tends to include civilians in that one because, well, they ARE members of the crew even though they aren't officers. Also, if you take a close look at the section the Borg pull out with their cutting beam, it looks like living quarters - areas where civilians are during combat situations.

tl;dr: Stuff like this makes things difficult to determine, especially for the Enterprise-D since she carries a lot of civilians.

You and your good points!

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The thing about the whole "civilians don't count" idea is... well... it can be kinda hard to tell for the Enterprise-D if officers or civilians were lost. For example, those 18 people in "Q Who?". It is never stated whether they are civilians or officers. It's just said that there were 18 people in that section. Jean-Luc refers to them as "members of my crew", but he tends to include civilians in that one because, well, they ARE members of the crew even though they aren't officers. Also, if you take a close look at the section the Borg pull out with their cutting beam, it looks like living quarters - areas where civilians are during combat situations.

tl;dr: Stuff like this makes things difficult to determine, especially for the Enterprise-D since she carries a lot of civilians.

You and your good points!

I'm sorry. :P But thank you. ;) (It's that overwhelming urge to be a TNG nitpicker, I can't help it.)

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The thing about the whole "civilians don't count" idea is... well... it can be kinda hard to tell for the Enterprise-D if officers or civilians were lost. For example, those 18 people in "Q Who?". It is never stated whether they are civilians or officers. It's just said that there were 18 people in that section. Jean-Luc refers to them as "members of my crew", but he tends to include civilians in that one because, well, they ARE members of the crew even though they aren't officers. Also, if you take a close look at the section the Borg pull out with their cutting beam, it looks like living quarters - areas where civilians are during combat situations.

tl;dr: Stuff like this makes things difficult to determine, especially for the Enterprise-D since she carries a lot of civilians.

You and your good points!

I'm sorry. :P But thank you. ;) (It's that overwhelming urge to be a TNG nitpicker, I can't help it.)

Haha it's cool. I understand where you're coming from. In that case, civilians probably should be considered. As always, it makes Sisko's count higher! Think of all the civilians on his station during battles. Eeeesh.

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The thing about the whole "civilians don't count" idea is... well... it can be kinda hard to tell for the Enterprise-D if officers or civilians were lost. For example, those 18 people in "Q Who?". It is never stated whether they are civilians or officers. It's just said that there were 18 people in that section. Jean-Luc refers to them as "members of my crew", but he tends to include civilians in that one because, well, they ARE members of the crew even though they aren't officers. Also, if you take a close look at the section the Borg pull out with their cutting beam, it looks like living quarters - areas where civilians are during combat situations.

tl;dr: Stuff like this makes things difficult to determine, especially for the Enterprise-D since she carries a lot of civilians.

You and your good points!

I'm sorry. :P But thank you. ;) (It's that overwhelming urge to be a TNG nitpicker, I can't help it.)

Haha it's cool. I understand where you're coming from. In that case, civilians probably should be considered. As always, it makes Sisko's count higher! Think of all the civilians on his station during battles. Eeeesh.

There are also plenty of civilians under Sisko's command as well. When the Klingons and Dominion boarded the station (in different episodes, thank goodness), there were many casualties I'm sure, but as Mr Picard pointed out, there is no real way to know who was civilian and who wasn't.

Now, if it's just security guard deaths? I think there are probably whole websites dedicated to dead red shirt counting.... :laugh:

Nomad_redshirts_2.jpg

There's twenty-nine and thirty.... :giggle:

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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