Tal

Alas, poor Tuvix.

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You could argue that if this is another universe, and NOT an altered timeline, the Spock Prime giving away knowledge wouldn't matter at all, because he is just a being that became a natural part of that universe's history, and used his knowledge for the betterment of that universe.

If it's an altered timeline, then Nero would have to be stopped at all costs and giving away some knowledge of the future to stop a greater threat would be logical.  Without more time travel, there would be nothing Spock Prime could do for the original timeline so stopping Nero would be the most important thing he could do.

I think there is an unfortunate lack of understanding what ceasing to exist means.

I don't think so at all.  If they truly ceased to exist, they would not have been able to return.

I believe the individuals didn't so much cease to exist, but were rather, their genetic material was incorporated into the new being known as Tuvix.  I see it more as an organ donor sort of thing.   A donor who, upon death, has his/her organs donated to someone he/she will never know or meet.   Whether the 'donation' was voluntary or accidental (as it was here) is incidental and doesn't really matter.   Tuvok and Neelix 'died' as individuals, but their DNA lived on in a viable new person.  

I don't think dying is the right term.  It's a unique situation.  I think if they were truly dead, there would have been no way to bring them back.  Not even the Doctor could bring back someone dead for a month or however long Tuvix was running around doing Tuvix things.

I don't know if it's a donor like situation either because Tuvix was so much more than that.  He had their memories and skills.  That's their essence--who they are.  It's much more like Enemy Within than anything else.

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I don't think dying is the right term.  It's a unique situation.  I think if they were truly dead, there would have been no way to bring them back.  Not even the Doctor could bring back someone dead for a month or however long Tuvix was running around doing Tuvix things.

Star Trek III??

Spock was dead as a doornail... even had a nifty torpedo coffin.   One movie later?  He's back.  

Spock was just as 'truly dead' as were Neelix and Tuvok; more so, he left a corpse.  Had a funeral. 

Those two men ceased to exist as individuals; what was left of them lived on in a new being who was later forcibly separated into his disparate halves.   A procedure so wrong-headed even the Doctor refused to do it (!).   To me, the Doctor's refusal was pretty much Neelix and Tuvok's death certificate; on ethical grounds, he knew what he was doing was the murder of a new being.  If Janeway hadn't forcibly overrode her own Doctor's advice, those men would remain dead (their matter living on in a new being...not unlike dead parent's DNA living on in a child).

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scenario   

Spocks  mind was in McCoy. The most important part of him was still alive. He just needed a new body. Spock was never completely dead.

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I don't think so at all.  If they truly ceased to exist, they would not have been able to return.

Star Trek does this all the time. Sci-fi voila science to undo states of being. That doesn't mean the initial state is invalid or unreal. Kirk in "The Deadly Years" was an old man by the time he was cured. Period. The drug might purge the radiation, but the damage done to his body up to that point would not be so easily undone except Star Trek.

Neelix was dead before Seven reanimated him with nanites. That she could doesn't mean he wasn't dead.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Spock was not completely dead.  His body was, but his mind was inside of McCoy, and when the effects of the Genesis wave revived his body, they put his mind back in.  At no point was it even considered to simply teach Spock from scratch, and they could have.  They restored his memories because that was the right thing to do.

 

 

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Spocks  mind was in McCoy. The most important part of him was still alive. He just needed a new body. Spock was never completely dead.

Then what spoke to Kirk in Engineering? Didn't Spock just copy his mind into McCoy? He pretty much had to have. Had he transferred himself in some tangible way, all that would have been left in Engineering was a dead husk.

So Spock was still dead in much the same way you die every time you use a transporter, which is to say he fundamentally ceased to exist as the person he was before the copying.

 

Edit: Sorry for the tag mess above.

Edited by prometheus59650

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That was a bit of a plot hole to be sure.  No clue.  For all we know that could have been a remnant of a past meld, or Spock reaching out through McCoy, or something to that effect.  I don't know if it was ever explained in a novelization or anything like that.

 

As for the transporter, that's another issue.  I know I read in one novel that you are not killed.  You are the same person, same molecules, just transferred to energy and reconstituted.  But it's not a copy.  I think if it was a copy, no one would use the thing. Plus, you could simply be recreated if you DID die.

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Then what spoke to Kirk in Engineering? Didn't Spock just copy his mind into McCoy? He pretty much had to have. Had he transferred himself in some tangible way, all that would have been left in Engineering was a dead husk.

I assumed (?) it was just a copy of his mind; an imprint of his consciousness, for McCoy to take to Mt. Seleya (per Vulcan custom, according to Sarek; when he said, "It is the Vulcan way, when the body's end is near").  

I'm pretty sure after the meld, the dying person isn't a soulless husk.

When his katra was put back into his body, he seemed to only retain factual knowledge (hence the imprint theory is validated further).  It was just knowledge; events reduced to mere fact, not feeling.  

Not to steer this too far off topic, but in Tuvix's case, his mind was a fusion of two entities; the intelligence of Tuvok, but with the emotional liberty of Neelix.  In true IDIC fashion, he was better off combined than separate.... 

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For all we know that could have been a remnant of a past meld,

I don't think so because a remnant of a past meld wouldn't seem to be able to, in a way that makes sense, interact with Kirk in the present and respond to different stimulus.

or Spock reaching out through McCoy, or something to that effect.  I don't know if it was ever explained in a novelization or anything like that.

No one's touched it as far as I know because it'd be an existential mess to try to wade through, 

Plus, you could simply be recreated if you DID die.

You can be. "Lonely Among Us" proved it. Mind was scanned and separated from physical pattern and then recombined. Take a scan of your physical pattern when you hit 20 or so, then have your mental pattern scanned every week. You hit 90 and decide that sucks, you have your mental pattern integrated with your 20 year-old physical pattern and..immortality. 

Not to steer this too far off topic, but in Tuvix's case, his mind was a fusion of two entities; the intelligence of Tuvok, but with the emotional liberty of Neelix.  In true IDIC fashion, he was better off combined than separate.... 

Very true. 

Edited by prometheus59650

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But and the end of the day, a year into this thread, you guys just didn't like Neelix or Tuvok and wanted Tuvix to be the guy because his acting was better at that point.

The writers were not thinking Janeway is gonna murder this new being, or they would have not written it like that. The story was just awful and she never would have done it after that. Clearly they were thinking, this character is interesting but hours later we get our guys back, no matter the cost.

It seemed perfectly acceptable when Sisko destroyed that Maquis planet, a whole planet mind you, for one Maquis base, because it was war, when all he had to do was take out their base. That was crazy too,. But that is okay. Why wasn't he booted out of starfleet immediately and arrested? Oh, it was war. Right.

But when Janeway is nowhere near Fed space and her transporter makes a melded guy, then she orders him returned, it's suddenly grounds for all manner of terrible things.

The writers were not thinking that far ahead. They made a silly episode. They are not still going on about it.

But I do agree that Picard would not have done it.

They should have just introduced a new character on the ship with similar traits and had him live with the rest. They didn't. It was the reverse of The Enemy Within and was ultimately too silly to waste on such a long thread. IMO.

You all do recall that much of Voyager up to season 4 was kind of silly.

 

Edited by Chimera82405

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It seemed perfectly acceptable when Sisko destroyed that Maquis planet, a whole planet mind you, for one Maquis base, because it was war, when all he had to do was take out their base. That was crazy too,. But that is okay. Why wasn't he booted out of starfleet immediately and arrested? Oh, it was war. 

He didn't 'destroy' the planet; he rendered it uninhabitable for the rebel terrorist Maquis to use anymore; thus, negating their 'claim' to that region of space.   Big difference.  He had the Defiant, not the Death Star.   It was a radical solution, but he didn't 'kill' anyone, nor did he destroy a planet...

The writers were not thinking that far ahead. They made a silly episode. They are not still going on about it.

This is why we have discussion threads; to discuss these episodes long after they're aired.  If you don't want to participate in the discussion?  You don't have to.   It wasn't necessarily 'silly'; it's thought-provoking.   The fact that it yields this kind of passionate discussion is proof of that...

They should have just introduced a new character on the ship with similar traits and had him live with the rest. They didn't. It was the reverse of The Enemy Within and was ultimately too silly to waste on such a long thread. IMO.

 

If you feel it is too silly and protracted?  Then there are plenty of other threads to peruse...  

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But and the end of the day, a year into this thread, you guys just didn't like Neelix or Tuvok and wanted Tuvix to be the guy because his acting was better at that point.

Say that 1,000 more times and it won't be any more true than with the number of times you've already repeated it.

 

 The writers were not thinking Janeway is gonna murder this new being, or they would have not written it like that. The story was just awful and she never would have done it after that.

No. They wanted to make a morality play. They did. Where it backfired was that when you make a morality play, there has to be a compelling argument for the other side. There isn't. Janeway chooses to murder Tuvix, not because there's an outside chance that keeping him in his state could harm him, but because her bestie came and cried and begged.

After Tuvix went to her and begged her to plead his case to Janeway.

There is no real "other side." Everyone just behaves abominably, and, the worst part is, they know it. It's all over their faces at the end. 

It seemed perfectly acceptable when Sisko destroyed that Maquis planet, a whole planet mind you, for one Maquis base, because it was war, when all he had to do was take out their base. 

In "For the Uniform" Sisko doesn't destroy a planet. He murders no one. He rendered a planet uninhabitable to, specifically, humans. At the end of the episode, the Cardassians can move to the contaminated world and live unharmed and the Humans can move to the once Cardassian world. Balance is maintained. 

 

You all do recall that much of Voyager up to season 4 was kind of silly.

That's not a point. 

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Hammer   

 I've actually called her the biggest villain in Star Trek history in the past. 

Yeah, about that...

I'm not the biggest Janeway cheerleader either, but this?  Really?  Worse than Nomad?  Worse than Gary Mitchell?  Worse than Khan?  Worse than the Borg?  Hyperbole much?

Let's shift to something else that happened, in arguably the WORST episode of Voyager.

Janeway, due to an accident, changed from human to some sort of salamander like being.

By the logic here, Janeway died, and they should have left the salamanders to live their lives.

Why is that different than Tuvix? 

Because the salamander creatures didn't appear to be sentient; even though they were supposed to be 'evolved', they appeared to be more animalistic. They were supposed to be (don't ask me how) evolution come 'full circle' somehow (I don't think the writers understood the process). 

It's the same with the crew of the Ent-D in "Genesis"; Picard didn't leave them in their reverted states because he needed his crew back and because that state was not optimal for either the crew or their mission.   And since they reverted to a state more animal than sentient,  they were unable to speak for themselves.

Tuvix was sentient; not an animal.  He wasn't mindless nor a creature of simple instinct, like the salamanders or the reverted Ent-D crew.   He was fully aware, intelligent, and retained qualities of both men yet was his own unique being.    That was the difference.  

 

I don't know if it's fair to make that assumption. What we saw was what is supposed to happen to humans after millions of years of evolution. They looked like reptiles, but they are undoubtedly mammals. They could have retained their intelligence and simply had no use for verbalization anymore. Not all intelligent, sentient life is going to be bipedal...

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But and the end of the day, a year into this thread, you guys just didn't like Neelix or Tuvok and wanted Tuvix to be the guy because his acting was better at that point.

Say that 1,000 more times and it won't be any more true than with the number of times you've already repeated it.

Haha I was just about to say that. This point was clearly addressed by us before.

And for the record - one more time - out of all three actors I like Russ the best.

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Hammer   

I think this thread contains a very interesting ethical debate. Sometimes with ethics, there is no obvious 'right' answer, just solutions with their own drawbacks. 

From a two lives vs one life POV, it's an easy decision to make; end one life to save two lives.

From a personal rights POV (Tuvix's human rights), it's also an easy decision to make; it's an execution by transporter pad and clearly violates his rights.

One could also argue that Neelix and Tuvok's rights are being unintentionally trampled upon by Tuvix's.

There are no easy answers here.

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I think you're right--there is no right answer--at least it's not a black and white problem.

You have to make a Sophie's Choice.

For those that don't know, at least this was a movie, but the Nazis basically told a woman that they were going to kill one of her children and she had to choose between her son and daughter.  If she refused to choose, they would kill both.

So now you have to make this decision, and condemn one of your own children to death.  By doing this, you also save the other child. 

 

You can't win.

And Janeway was in a similar boat.  She chose to save her two original crewmembers.

 

I think from the Vulcan point of view, Janeway did it right.  But humans can differ. 

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I think you're right--there is no right answer--at least it's not a black and white problem.

You have to make a Sophie's Choice.

For those that don't know, at least this was a movie, but the Nazis basically told a woman that they were going to kill one of her children and she had to choose between her son and daughter.  If she refused to choose, they would kill both.

So now you have to make this decision, and condemn one of your own children to death.  By doing this, you also save the other child. 

 

You can't win.

And Janeway was in a similar boat.  She chose to save her two original crewmembers.

 

I think from the Vulcan point of view, Janeway did it right.  But humans can differ. 

The story literally was, wasn't it? A catch 22, Sophie's Choice, no win scenario.

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