Tal

Alas, poor Tuvix.

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Sim   

It becomes even more complicated drawing a line between different individuals, when you're dealing with things such as mind meld, or the transfer of "katra" or mind patterns in case of Data and B-4.

The TNG novel trilogy "Cold Equations", when Data is brought back to life, made me wonder about this. There, Noonian Soong has created an all-human looking android body with permanent emotions for himself, and in the end, transfers all of Data's personality (stored in B-4) into his body, overwriting his personality. But the new Data maintains all memory files of Soong. He is Data, but with lots of additional memory of his "father", and new capacity for emotion, and a grasp of human interaction the old Data didn't have. So is he still Data?

But then, just like the question whether a person is more than the sum of his memories and mental faculties, if a person has a "soul", has not been answered in "real life" either. If someone gets a head injury and parts of his brain are damaged, which results in a change of character, but he maintains all past memories -- is he still the same person? Are we indeed "the same person" from one second to the next, or do we change with every new synapsis that's formed in our brain, with every new experience we make? Where do we draw the line when a change to a person is too huge to still consider him the same person? Or do we go by a mere formalistic definition (which is questioned on Star Trek)? Is there even such a thing as individual identity, or is it nothing but a mere construct? Is it how other people perceive and treat us that makes us who we are, or is it what we ourselves make up as self-image?

All these questions make the dilemma in "Tuvix" hard to answer for me. You could argue that when Tuvix was created, Neelix and Tuvok both weren't dead, just continued their identities in a different, merged biological vessel. How different is merging your identity with that of someone else really, compared to, say, an individual who makes a huge traumatic experience and changes his life because of that?

Likewise, is Tuvix really dead, as long as Tuvok and Neelix maintain all his memories after having been restored?

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Corylea   

I'm a clinical psychologist in real life.  Real life provides a situation that's like this one, flipped on its head.

People with Dissociative Identity Disorder (which is probably still more commonly known to laypeople under its former name, Multiple Personality Disorder) have more than one personality -- the formal term is "alter" -- in the same body.  Some people with this condition have only two or three alters, but some have a dozen or even several dozen.

Sometimes alters are what are called "co-conscious," which means that Alter A is aware of what's happening when Alter B is in control of the body, kind of like being in the passenger seat of a car but still able to see out the windshield.  More frequently, alters are NOT co-conscious, which means that when Alter A is in control of the body, Alter B doesn't know what's happening and has no memory of the events.

This means that DID/MPD is not an easy condition to live with.  People have no memory of huge chunks of their lives, and they can "awaken" to find themselves in a new place, with no memory of how they got there.  They may find themselves surrounded by people they don't know, who nonetheless believe that THEY know them.  It's hard to hold down a job.  It's hard to maintain a relationship.  It's hard to accomplish any of the tasks of daily life.

Many people with DID/MPD don't realize that they have the condition.  They're aware that they're "losing" blocks of time or that people they don't know call them by other names or that things they don't remember buying suddenly appear in their homes, but for many such people, they think that's just the way life is, and it's like that for everyone.  It's often a great shock when a person with DID/MPD is "introduced" to the people who share their body.

Once the various alters are made aware of each other, then the question that interests us arises -- what's the fair and just thing to do, when several different people share one body?

It used to be that the accepted solution to DID/MPD was to try to fuse the various alters into a single person, and that's still what most therapists consider to be the "best" solution.  But sometimes the alters don't WANT to be fused.  Sometimes they see being fused as a form of death, and they want to continue to be separate.  But if they stay separate, how do you divide the time?  Who has to hold down a job, so the body that houses them all can eat?  Does going to work "count" as time in the body?  But then doesn't that mean that the worker doesn't get to play, and the others get the profit of the work without having to contribute to it at all?  But if the person who works also gets time to relax and to play, then isn't the worker hogging the body?

What happens if one member of the group of alters is a criminal but the others are not?  Do they all go to jail?

What happens if one member of the group of alters wants to get married, but the rest don't?

Even without transporter technology, these are some of the ethical issues that therapists have to wrestle with.  Of course, it's not ultimately the therapist's decision, since the body doesn't belong to us.  But we're usually the principal adviser.  What do you DO when several different people share one body, and they don't all agree on how it should be used?

So you can see why I find the Tuvix problem so compelling...

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Sim   

I'm a clinical psychologist in real life.  Real life provides a situation that's like this one, flipped on its head.

People with Dissociative Identity Disorder (which is probably still more commonly known to laypeople under its former name, Multiple Personality Disorder) have more than one personality -- the formal term is "alter" -- in the same body.  Some people with this condition have only two or three alters, but some have a dozen or even several dozen.

Sometimes alters are what are called "co-conscious," which means that Alter A is aware of what's happening when Alter B is in control of the body, kind of like being in the passenger seat of a car but still able to see out the windshield.  More frequently, alters are NOT co-conscious, which means that when Alter A is in control of the body, Alter B doesn't know what's happening and has no memory of the events.

This means that DID/MPD is not an easy condition to live with.  People have no memory of huge chunks of their lives, and they can "awaken" to find themselves in a new place, with no memory of how they got there.  They may find themselves surrounded by people they don't know, who nonetheless believe that THEY know them.  It's hard to hold down a job.  It's hard to maintain a relationship.  It's hard to accomplish any of the tasks of daily life.

Many people with DID/MPD don't realize that they have the condition.  They're aware that they're "losing" blocks of time or that people they don't know call them by other names or that things they don't remember buying suddenly appear in their homes, but for many such people, they think that's just the way life is, and it's like that for everyone.  It's often a great shock when a person with DID/MPD is "introduced" to the people who share their body.

Once the various alters are made aware of each other, then the question that interests us arises -- what's the fair and just thing to do, when several different people share one body?

It used to be that the accepted solution to DID/MPD was to try to fuse the various alters into a single person, and that's still what most therapists consider to be the "best" solution.  But sometimes the alters don't WANT to be fused.  Sometimes they see being fused as a form of death, and they want to continue to be separate.  But if they stay separate, how do you divide the time?  Who has to hold down a job, so the body that houses them all can eat?  Does going to work "count" as time in the body?  But then doesn't that mean that the worker doesn't get to play, and the others get the profit of the work without having to contribute to it at all?  But if the person who works also gets time to relax and to play, then isn't the worker hogging the body?

What happens if one member of the group of alters is a criminal but the others are not?  Do they all go to jail?

What happens if one member of the group of alters wants to get married, but the rest don't?

Even without transporter technology, these are some of the ethical issues that therapists have to wrestle with.  Of course, it's not ultimately the therapist's decision, since the body doesn't belong to us.  But we're usually the principal adviser.  What do you DO when several different people share one body, and they don't all agree on how it should be used?

So you can see why I find the Tuvix problem so compelling...

That's fascinating, Corylea!

But I guess cases of DID/MPD are very rare? Or are they more common than you'd assume?

The reason why the questions I raised above concern me to some extent, is because I have a psychiatric condition, too (and no, I don't worry writing that here; I trust the people here and if someone has a problem with me, it's their problem. Plus, it's very unlikely someone in "real life" gets to see what I write here). 10 years ago, I had a brief (4 weeks) paranoid delusion which would have been classified as schizophrenia, had it lasted longer. Ever since then, I am on antipsychotic medication and the main symptoms have never come back, thank God.

But I'm suffering from a variety of "comorbid symptoms" and/or side-effects of the meds, which in effect causes sometimes extreme mood swings. I feel that sometimes when I wake up, I am an entirely different person than the day before. Now everybody has mood swings, it just looks like that mine are more extreme than common, and come along with entirely different thoughts that bother me on any given day. Fortunately, my identity is coherent enough not to be threatened by these different "selfs". I can only imagine what it would be like if I then attached different names and identities to these different moods. But I couldn't do this to my therapist, I like him too much. ;)

This, plus a very close confident, friend and best man of mine went through a change of identity, as he's transsexual. During the time of his coming out up to his formal and official change of status, I was very close to him. This too made me question many concepts of identity that are commonly taken for granted.

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Corylea   

But I guess cases of DID/MPD are very rare? Or are they more common than you'd assume?

Sadly, the answer to that question depends on who you ask; the field has not achieved a consensus.  DID seems to come about when a young child undergoes such severe trauma that it shatters the developing personality into fragments.  It seems to be nearly impossible to acquire DID as an adult, though it can be first identified or diagnosed in adulthood.  Most cases of DID in developed, Western nations are caused by severe and repeated child abuse; being in a war or experiencing repeated natural disasters can also produce the condition.

My adviser in grad school believed that people developed DID whenever they suffered repeated severe sexual abuse before the age of 7, which would mean that the condition is actually WAY more common than most people realize.  Other thinkers believe the condition is very rare.  I don't actually think anybody knows.  Since many of the people who do have the condition don't know they have it -- or don't realize it until partway through their lives -- and since many of the people who DO know that they have the condition are hiding it, it's pretty much impossible to get an accurate picture of its prevalence.

I used to date a man with DID; or rather, I was dating three of the nine of him.  He kept his DID a secret from everyone but me, because he was afraid of being hospitalized for life.  I told him that it was only possible to hospitalize someone against their will in the US if they were dangerous to themselves or others, and he wasn't, but he didn't want to take that chance.  And really, who could blame him?  If someone's most formative experience has been severe and repeated child abuse, it hasn't exactly taught that person that the world is a good place or that people are trustworthy.

How many people, like my ex-boyfriend, have DID, know they have it, and manage it well enough to keep under the radar?  Impossible to guess.  But the figures for child abuse are pretty sobering.

 

The reason why the questions I raised above concern me to some extent, is because I have a psychiatric condition, too (and no, I don't worry writing that here; I trust the people here and if someone has a problem with me, it's their problem. Plus, it's very unlikely someone in "real life" gets to see what I write here). 10 years ago, I had a brief (4 weeks) paranoid delusion which would have been classified as schizophrenia, had it lasted longer. Ever since then, I am on antipsychotic medication and the main symptoms have never come back, thank God.

But I'm suffering from a variety of "comorbid symptoms" and/or side-effects of the meds, which in effect causes sometimes extreme mood swings. I feel that sometimes when I wake up, I am an entirely different person than the day before. Now everybody has mood swings, it just looks like that mine are more extreme than common, and come along with entirely different thoughts that bother me on any given day. Fortunately, my identity is coherent enough not to be threatened by these different "selfs". I can only imagine what it would be like if I then attached different names and identities to these different moods. But I couldn't do this to my therapist, I like him too much. ;)

I'm sorry to hear that you've had that to deal with but glad that medication is managing your condition.  It does sound as if having that experience would lead you to ponder identity more than the average person.  

Dissociation, like most human things, is a continuum, rather than an all-or-nothing thing.  Just about everyone has experienced "normal" dissociation, where you drive somewhere, and once you get where you're going, you realize that you don't remember part of the drive.  You must have done okay, because you didn't have an accident on the way, and you got where you were going, but you don't really remember all of the drive; you weren't entirely there for it.  This kind of zoning out is completely normal -- everyone does it -- and it's one of the interesting properties of the human mind.

DID is at the extreme other end of the dissociation continuum from zoning out while driving, and there are lots of other places on the continuum in between.  Some of those places on the continuum can feel weird or can be a "Whoa, that was freaky" kind of thing to experience, but none of them mean that a person has DID.

Other permutations of identity -- ones that aren't based in dissociation -- aren't related to DID, even if they seem on the surface to have a few things in common with it.  As far as we know, DID is caused by dissociation, so other experiences around changing or shaky identity are not likely to "become" DID, anymore than an eagle will become a turkey, even though they're both birds.

 

This, plus a very close confident, friend and best man of mine went through a change of identity, as he's transsexual. During the time of his coming out up to his formal and official change of status, I was very close to him. This too made me question many concepts of identity that are commonly taken for granted. 

Did he feel as if his identity were actually changing, or did he merely feel that he was giving up on a masquerade and was letting out the real self he'd been all along?  My understanding is that most transgendered folk who transition feel the latter, though of course there are many ways to go about this.

Identity is partly a construct.  We construct it in collaboration with the people in our lives, and nearly all of us have had the experience of making a new friend and having that friend bring out aspects of ourselves that we hadn't had much of a chance to use, before making the friend who called them out.  And yet, we experience ourselves as a coherent whole, even as we have many facets, and even as we grow and change.

I could talk about identity all day -- I find it endlessly fascinating, and you seem like a very interesting and thoughtful person to discuss it with -- but I need to go get some things done in the real world. ;)

 

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You know, I'm almost thinking we could open a KM thread about this episode; if any episode of VGR merited one, it's this one.... :laugh:

But in the meantime, I appreciate that everyone is keeping it cool and limited to the discussion; this is passionate ST fandom at its best.   My own personal view is the same as Founder's, but since (as Sim says) we don't really know the limits of Trek tech, it's hard to say exactly where that line in the sand between life and death is drawn really; which would lend validation to Corylea's argument that Tuvok and Neelix were temporarily 'out of reach.' 

But I personally believe that once Tuvix had awareness as an individual, and expressed a desire for his own life?   He was a unique new life form.   You could list his 'birthdate' as the day he walked off the transporter pad, and that would also mark the date of Neelix and Tuvok's deaths.   Death in Star Trek isn't quite what it is in our world, that's for certain...

Exactly.

I think a stronger argument for Janeway's actions is not that she saved two lives or anything like that as we don't really know if she did or not.

A better argument for Janeway is that she did the pragmatic option - she got back a tactical/security officer that was needed on a dangerous journey through the Delta Quadrant. She couldn't afford to not have a security officer. Even if Tuvix took his place - she didn't know his skils, didn't know his limits, didn't know what he was capable of. She did with Tuvok and he would serve the crew better to make the journey home. But I guess they couldn't have her do that because it would be more of a Captain Ransom/Equinox type decision and not a perfect Janeway one.

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kenman   

You know, I'm almost thinking we could open a KM thread about this episode; if any episode of VGR merited one, it's this one.... :laugh:

But in the meantime, I appreciate that everyone is keeping it cool and limited to the discussion; this is passionate ST fandom at its best.   My own personal view is the same as Founder's, but since (as Sim says) we don't really know the limits of Trek tech, it's hard to say exactly where that line in the sand between life and death is drawn really; which would lend validation to Corylea's argument that Tuvok and Neelix were temporarily 'out of reach.' 

But I personally believe that once Tuvix had awareness as an individual, and expressed a desire for his own life?   He was a unique new life form.   You could list his 'birthdate' as the day he walked off the transporter pad, and that would also mark the date of Neelix and Tuvok's deaths.   Death in Star Trek isn't quite what it is in our world, that's for certain...

If I remember correctly, at the end of the TAS episode "The Lorelei Signal," they used the transporter to de-age all the people who'd been prematurely aged, by restoring them to the transporter pattern that had previously been stored.  Wonder why they couldn't do that in "The Deadly Years"? 

TAS was the first episode to suggest the idea of the transporter as a fix-all cure.  And if such a device existed, I could see it being used (or abused?) as a means of de-aging somebody (for vanity), or for weight loss (carefully reprogramming one's body-mass index).   

Maybe because they had 51 minutes to play with in TOS, instead of only 24, so they didn't have to use hand-waving cop-outs but could actually solve problems. :P

That's just because TAS was more clever, that's all... (sits quietly and waits for the backlash... :laugh: :P). 

TAS had goofy weird ideas, but I'd take it's goofy weird ideas over the vast majority of Voyagers any day. 

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Janeway was the biggest bonehead captain featured in a Trek show.  She was also the most evil villain in Star Trek history.

But I don't think she made the wrong call here.  This was a rare episode from Voyager that was thought provoking.  One of the few good episodes in the entire run of the show for me. 

Ultimately, I think you have to side with the life of the original beings.  They weren't dead, and Janeway had a moral obligation to bring them back under these circumstances.  It's not like she would have to destroy a timeline or something ridiculous.

The cost of Tuvix's life was a horrible one.  It was a real Sophie's choice.

Oh, and I say this with the presumption that yes, Tuvix was an individual with a right to live.  However, Tuvok and Neelix's rights, I feel, had to trump Tuvix's almost on the "it was my body first" basis.

It's one of those episodes that makes me wonder how the other captains would have handled it.

Edited by StillKirok

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However, Tuvok and Neelix's rights, I feel, had to trump Tuvix's almost on the "it was my body first" basis. 

"Was" being the operative word; it wasn't any longer.  Tuvix was no longer the sum of his parts.  He was more.   

And by that reasoning, anyone unhappy with their child should be able to just separate the DNA strands and put the sperm and egg back in their respective parents.  A retroactive abortion; which is precisely what happened to Tuvix.  Tuvix was 'born' on the transporter pad when Neelix and Tuvok died; he was born of their DNA.   Once he was found to be sentient and wanted his OWN existence to continue?  That should've ended the argument right there. 

A way around that would've been to do a bit of an "Enemy Within" with the story; maybe something was wrong or unstable in the genetic pairing that was killing Tuvix, and his separation was necessary to save both halves.   But there were no issues; Tuvix could've (and should've) continued as his own being.  

As someone pointed out earlier, Voyager was supposed to be seeking out new life... and there it was. 

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If I take something of yours, even unintentionally, it's still yours. 

I agree that Tuvix was his own entity.  I will go with that.  I don't think it matters because Tuvok and Neelix also had a right to live, and they lived first.

Allowing Tuvix to live would be akin to saying "finders keepers."

This wasn't a pregnancy.  It was a mashing together of two people by accident, and despite that accident, this was a reversible process.  Ethically, Janeway had no choice.

By the same logic, the salamander Janeway should have been allowed to stay that way.

Tuvok and Neelix couldn't advocate for themselves, and ultimately, Janeway had to make that call.

Enemy Within is a very good comparison.  Let's change it slightly.  They are stable.  Good Kirk understands that reuniting is the right thing to do--it makes him truly him and helps him be the best captain.  Bad Kirk likes what he is, wants to settle on some planet that he can eventually take over so he can rape as he pleases.

Good Kirk wants to reunite.  Bad Kirk does not.

I think Spock is morally obligated to force the reuniting, especially assuming that Spock feels that actual Kirk would want the same. 

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This wasn't a pregnancy.  It was a mashing together of two people by accident, and despite that accident, this was a reversible process.

So is pregnancy....:P

If I take something of yours, even unintentionally, it's still yours.  

Yes, but no one 'took' from the other; they were fused together at a genetic/molecular level.   Quite a different thing.   And Tuvix had a will of his own.  

This wasn't a pregnancy.  It was a mashing together of two people by accident, and despite that accident, this was a reversible process.  Ethically, Janeway had no choice.

She absolutely had a choice; let the third new life form (created from the joining of two) live.   So ethically she had two choices.

Enemy Within is a very good comparison.  Let's change it slightly.  They are stable.  Good Kirk understands that reuniting is the right thing to do--it makes him truly him and helps him be the best captain.  Bad Kirk likes what he is, wants to settle on some planet that he can eventually take over so he can rape as he pleases.

Good Kirk wants to reunite.  Bad Kirk does not.

I think Spock is morally obligated to force the reuniting, especially assuming that Spock feels that actual Kirk would want the same. 

Bad Kirk would not be allowed to loot, pillage and rape on his own; besides, he was power mad and ambitious (not to mention devious).   Even if he were allowed to continue, he could very easily pose a danger to the security of the Federation (ala Khan in TWOK) since he has knowledge of starship operations (and prefix codes); he could hijack a passing starship and attempt to take over again.  

Remember Kirk's insatiable ambition; it's part of who he is (see: TMP).  And that trait was very much alive in Bad Kirk...

But Tuvix has no such issues; arguably he was a BETTER individual than either alone.   He had Tuvok's patience and intellect, but tempered with Neelix's joviality (though not dialed up to the obnoxious level of Neelix).  The crew LIKED him.   He was a new being; living his own life as  a third individual, fused from the deaths of the other two (and make no mistake; if VGR suddenly and permanently lost its transporter capability for the rest of the show, those men would be written off).

To paraphrase Jurassic Park, Janeway was so concerned that she could do something that she never stopped to think if she should.   She ignored a benign life form's plea to live; IMO that was as bad as Archer committing torture or stranding a shipful of helpless aliens as he stole their warp drive.

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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So is pregnancy...

Ha.

Yes, but no one 'took' from the other; they were fused together at a genetic/molecular level.   Quite a different thing.   And Tuvix had a will of his own.  

Tuvix was a freak of nature, that yes, became an entity of his own, but still had the memories and skills of the two people from which he came.  It could be argued that the creation of Tuvix wasn't natural.

She absolutely had a choice; let the third new life form (created from the joining of two) live.   So ethically she had two choices.

She had two choices, but ETHICALLY, her duty was to the two lifeforms that weren't able to defend themselves.  In the absence, the ONLY presumption that can be allowed is the presumption that Tuvok and Neelix would have chosen to live and fight as passionately to live as Tuvix did.  As far as I know, neither Tuvok nor Neelix complained. 

Tuvix was essentially an injury that Janeway reversed.  A tough decision yes, but ultimately, I think the right one.

Bad Kirk would not be allowed to loot, pillage and rape on his own; besides, he was power mad and ambitious (not to mention devious).   Even if he were allowed to continue, he could very easily pose a danger to the security of the Federation (ala Khan in TWOK) since he has knowledge of starship operations (and prefix codes); he could hijack a passing starship and attempt to take over again.  

Remember Kirk's insatiable ambition; it's part of who he is (see: TMP).  And that trait was very much alive in Bad Kirk...

Hopefully talking about Enemy Within won't derail the topic, but I think it's pretty relevant, given the similarities of the accidents.  The running around, looting and raping thing was just a joke, but since we are changing the facts of the episode slightly, let's say that Bad Kirk wasn't quite that bad, or at least, capable of fooling enough people that he wouldn't do all those bad things. But let's keep him bad enough that we don't like him.  I think for many reasons, you still have to unite the two characters back to the original Kirk.  That episode was sort of a reversal of Tuvix in that one being became two.  But I think ethically, the decision has to be the same.  If it's possible to restore the original entity, you have to do so.

But Tuvix has no such issues; arguably he was a BETTER individual than either alone.   He had Tuvok's patience and intellect, but tempered with Neelix's joviality (though not dialed up to the obnoxious level of Neelix).  The crew LIKED him.   He was a new being; living his own life as  a third individual, fused from the deaths of the other two (and make no mistake; if VGR suddenly and permanently lost its transporter capability for the rest of the show, those men would be written off).

I think all of the above is what makes the topic interesting, and why I don't think KM is the right place for it.  Admittedly, I didn't read any posts while I was away, but it sounds like reasonable minds can differ and the topic, at least in the last 24 hours, hasn't become too heated. 

Now yes, one difference between Enemy Within and Tuvix is that the accidental entity was likeable.  Maybe we should change the hypothetical again.  The two beings are stable.  Evil Kirk, who we don't like, is now the one that wants to recombine, knowing that it's better long term.  But Good Kirk, who lacks the command abilities but has the compassion, wants to live.

I don't think it matters under any circumstance, because the duty is to the original Kirk, who we have to assume WOULD choose to be restored. 

Or to make it more relevant to Tuvix, let's say Tuvix was a jerk and no one liked him.  Let's make his personality annoying, and while he still retains the essences of both people, his skills and value as a Starfleet officer are gone and he is NOT a contributing member of the crew on the same level. 

He's still a third being, healthy, not evil, but not friendly, and he could live a productive life if he chose.  And he wanted to live.  Yet in a popularity contest, 10 out of 10 people would prefer Tuvok and Neelix back.

Whether we like the accidental being(s) makes the decision harder, but I don't think the result should be any different.

To paraphrase Jurassic Park, Janeway was so concerned that she could do something that she never stopped to think if she should.   She ignored a benign life form's plea to live; IMO that was as bad as Archer committing torture or stranding a shipful of helpless aliens as he stole their warp drive.

I only have vague memories of what Archer did so I can't comment.  Enterprise specifics on lesser episodes are not really engrained.  But Tuvix sticks out, and I don't think she IGNORED a benign life form's plea to live. I think it weighed heavily on her decision.  Tuvok and Neelix were also benign lifeforms and she had to presume they would also choose to live. 

Prove it.

 

The fact that Tuvix existed was proof that Tuvok and Neelix were not dead.  If they were, Tuvix wouldn't exist. 

The Doctor figured out how to separate them.  The fact that they were separated confirms that they were never dead.  Voyager's crew had a belief and a means to bring them back, and they successfully did so.  That's the proof.

 

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It could be argued that the creation of Tuvix wasn't natural.

Neither is a warp driven starship in the Delta quadrant... you don't see Janeway ordering the ship's destruction because of it.   Neither is Picard's artificial heart valve.   Neither is the life-saving EMH.    'Natural' in the ST universe (and even ours) is not an argument...

Tuvix was essentially an injury that Janeway reversed.  A tough decision yes, but ultimately, I think the right one.

An injury is harmful to a being and is not sentient.  Tuvix was a living being, not a cancerous tumor or a broken leg.   If I have cosmetic surgery to remove scar tissue, I'm not going to hear the scar tissue argue and plead for its life.  Tough decision hell, it's just murder.  She gave Tuvix the death penalty for the crime of not being separate people, a choice which he didn't have to make for himself. 

The fact that Tuvix existed was proof that Tuvok and Neelix were not dead.  If they were, Tuvix wouldn't exist. 

 

Again, I can easily refute that; I am approx. 50% of my father's DNA and 50% of my mother's DNA.   Both of my parents passed away many years ago, yet I am alive.  Same with Tuvix.  Or what about an organ donor whose organs live on after his/her death?   Tuvix was a new being; a 'phoenix' created from the ashes of two others.   He was born on a transporter pad instead of a womb, but the result is the same.  He walked off that pad his own being; unique unto himself. 

The Doctor figured out how to separate them.  The fact that they were separated confirms that they were never dead.  Voyager's crew had a belief and a means to bring them back, and they successfully did so.  That's the proof.

 

All that 'proves' is that the Doctor found a way to kill Tuvix and revive two dead men.   In Star Trek's universe, we've seen death unnaturally reversed many times; Spock from Genesis, Scotty from Nomad, McCoy in Shore Leave, etc.   These people SHOULD have been dead, and would've remained dead had it not been for a deus ex machina-style save.    Ditto Tuvok and Neelix.  

Now yes, one difference between Enemy Within and Tuvix is that the accidental entity was likeable. 

Another difference is that both halves of Kirk were dying without the other; Tuvix was not.  He was whole and stable.  

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Prove it.

 

The fact that Tuvix existed was proof that Tuvok and Neelix were not dead.  If they were, Tuvix wouldn't exist. 

The Doctor figured out how to separate them.  The fact that they were separated confirms that they were never dead.  Voyager's crew had a belief and a means to bring them back, and they successfully did so.  That's the proof.

 

Um... what? They died creating him. Without that fusion, Tuvix would not exist.

The Doctor also brought back Neelix from the dead using nanoprobes. Does that mean he wasn't dead?

That's not proof. Again - your side has yet to prove that Neelix/Tuvok were inside screaming to break free. They cease to exist. Ceasing to exist = death.

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But they did not die creating him.  The fact that they were restored proves that.  Babies are not born with the skills and memories of their parents. 

Tuvok and Neelix were fused together, but they weren't dead. 

The fact that they could be restored is proof positive that they did NOT cease to exist. 

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But they did not die creating him.  The fact that they were restored proves that.  Babies are not born with the skills and memories of their parents. 

Tuvok and Neelix were fused together, but they weren't dead. 

The fact that they could be restored is proof positive that they did NOT cease to exist. 

Yeah, and as Founder said; the EMH also revived a 'dead' Neelix with Borg nano probes... all that 'proves' is that the Doctor can reverse death, but it doesn't prove that Neelix and Tuvok weren't already dead.   We've seen many instances where the 'dead' in ST have been revived.    

Hell, Spock was dead as a doornail at the end of TWOK....

 

The EMH essentially divided a unified (and thriving) living being back into two halves again. 

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Hammer   

If the two were combined into one person, where did the extra mass go? The matter from both bodies should be there. One would think that such an accident would cause a mess of organs mixed together, not a living, breathing person that kind of looks like the offspring of the two of them. It's too bad we don't hear Tuvok and Neelix's opinion after they step off the transporter pad, or whether they had Tuvix's memories at all.

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If the two were combined into one person, where did the extra mass go? The matter from both bodies should be there. One would think that such an accident would cause a mess of organs mixed together, not a living, breathing person that kind of looks like the offspring of the two of them. It's too bad we don't hear Tuvok and Neelix's opinion after they step off the transporter pad, or whether they had Tuvix's memories at all.

Well, the same thing applies to all transporter 'malfunctions' of this sort; where did the extra mass to create a duplicate Kirk ("Enemy Within") or Riker ("Second Chances") come from?   The answer:  Deus ex machina, that's where.  ;)

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scenario   

There is a psychology experiment like this. The setup: There is a school bus with 40 children on it trapped on the train tracks. There is a train out of control going down the tracks. There is a heavy set man standing on the tracks. If the train hits the man he is dead but the train derails and the children and everyone on the train live. If someone warns the man, he lives but 40 children die. Do you warn the man?

Same scenario with one difference. The man is not standing on the tracks but you can push him onto the tracks thereby saving 40 children, 

Many people would allow the man to die. Almost no one would actively push him onto the tracks. 

If the episode said that they had to do something to keep Tuvix alive and prevent the split, many more people would be fine with just letting him die.

 

I can see why McCoy didn't trust the transporter.  

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Spock and Neelix had corpses.  Tuvok and Neelix were just merged together but still very much alive.  Their knowledge was in tact in Tuvix.

I believe memories, emotions, feelings--the essences were still there, trapped. 

It's kind of like the DC Universe hero Firestorm in a way--at least physically.

I'm not saying Tuvix wasn't a viable intelligent being.  He was.  But Tuvok and Neelix were not dead.

 

If the two were combined into one person, where did the extra mass go? The matter from both bodies should be there. One would think that such an accident would cause a mess of organs mixed together, not a living, breathing person that kind of looks like the offspring of the two of them. It's too bad we don't hear Tuvok and Neelix's opinion after they step off the transporter pad, or whether they had Tuvix's memories at all.

Given that transporters don't exist in the real world, and we don't actually understand the science behind the fictional ones, I think we just have to "shut up and accept" the concept that what they wanted to do got done the way it happened.  Everything was on a genetic level so whatever the transporter did, it did.

 

There is a psychology experiment like this. The setup: There is a school bus with 40 children on it trapped on the train tracks. There is a train out of control going down the tracks. There is a heavy set man standing on the tracks. If the train hits the man he is dead but the train derails and the children and everyone on the train live. If someone warns the man, he lives but 40 children die. Do you warn the man?

I think this is off topic, but for me, the answer is "it depends on if there's a child on that bus (or the driver) that I care about.  If it's your son or daughter, or a family member on that bus, odds are you would let the innocent man die to protect your loved one.  So for the sake of that hypothetical, I would have to assume that I have no personal stake in this.  I don't care about anyone and it's just a question of what to do.  I'm not 100 percent sure here, since it's not so black and white.  But I think that while LOGICALLY, you let Phat Bastard die to save the kids, ethically, you have to warn the fat slob.

That's a no win scenario.

But yeah, I think actively pushing the fat guy on the tracks is worse, though again, if one of the people on that bus was a loved one, I would have no problem allowing a stranger to die to save that person.

I'd feel terrible, but I'd do what I had to do to protect that loved one.

 

 

 

 

 

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But I think that while LOGICALLY, you let Phat Bastard die to save the kids, ethically, you have to warn the fat slob.

Since this isn't a KM topic (and I'd like to keep it that way...) let's not use talk like that in describing overweight persons, even hypothetical ones, OK?  Bad form.

 

I also believe this episode "Tuvix" really has no clear 'winner.'   Either you revive two men (and people in ST without leaving corpses; how about someone who is vaporized?) at expense of a third.

With regards to the heavy man and the kids?  As horrible as it sounds, it's a numbers game; whichever solution saves the most lives.  

This is not the case with Tuvix.  He is a singular being made from the DNA of two; if you look at it as a numbers game, you kill Tuvix by splitting his DNA in half and recreate two men who no longer existed.   But since Tuvix was contented, not medically in danger, and was even popular with the crew (!), there was no pressing REASON to kill him and resurrect the other two.   Unlike the bus full of kids, the situation here simply wasn't that desperate

Let's say I donated a heart but my body/brain are kept alive somehow.  A recipient gets my heart, but someone wanted to revive the rest of me by taking back my heart!  I wouldn't want to kill the recipient just because there is a chance I could be revived.   If I were Tuvok and Neelix (and Tuvix was BOTH), I would want my DNA/heart to live on in the new life, whomever that may be...

 

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scenario   

Spock and Neelix had corpses.  Tuvok and Neelix were just merged together but still very much alive.  Their knowledge was in tact in Tuvix.

I believe memories, emotions, feelings--the essences were still there, trapped. 

It's kind of like the DC Universe hero Firestorm in a way--at least physically.

I'm not saying Tuvix wasn't a viable intelligent being.  He was.  But Tuvok and Neelix were not dead.

 

If the two were combined into one person, where did the extra mass go? The matter from both bodies should be there. One would think that such an accident would cause a mess of organs mixed together, not a living, breathing person that kind of looks like the offspring of the two of them. It's too bad we don't hear Tuvok and Neelix's opinion after they step off the transporter pad, or whether they had Tuvix's memories at all.

Given that transporters don't exist in the real world, and we don't actually understand the science behind the fictional ones, I think we just have to "shut up and accept" the concept that what they wanted to do got done the way it happened.  Everything was on a genetic level so whatever the transporter did, it did.

 

There is a psychology experiment like this. The setup: There is a school bus with 40 children on it trapped on the train tracks. There is a train out of control going down the tracks. There is a heavy set man standing on the tracks. If the train hits the man he is dead but the train derails and the children and everyone on the train live. If someone warns the man, he lives but 40 children die. Do you warn the man?

I think this is off topic, but for me, the answer is "it depends on if there's a child on that bus (or the driver) that I care about.  If it's your son or daughter, or a family member on that bus, odds are you would let the innocent man die to protect your loved one.  So for the sake of that hypothetical, I would have to assume that I have no personal stake in this.  I don't care about anyone and it's just a question of what to do.  I'm not 100 percent sure here, since it's not so black and white.  But I think that while LOGICALLY, you let Phat Bastard die to save the kids, ethically, you have to warn the fat slob.

That's a no win scenario.

But yeah, I think actively pushing the fat guy on the tracks is worse, though again, if one of the people on that bus was a loved one, I would have no problem allowing a stranger to die to save that person.

I'd feel terrible, but I'd do what I had to do to protect that loved one.

 

 

 

 

 

The point of my post is that this is an ethical situation. How would people decide what is the most ethical? Does it depend on the culture they grew up in? It's deliberately not black and white. Tuvix is not an easy black and white episode. That's on purpose.

How much of the reason that many people don't like killing Tuvix is because he is such a likable person. Would people think differently of he was unlikable.

 

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How much of the reason that many people don't like killing Tuvix is because he is such a likable person. Would people think differently of he was unlikable.

I know this sounds evil, but if that were the case?  One could argue that keeping Tuvix combined, if he were a negative person, would be bad for crew morale.   I don't necessarily subscribe to this, but in a small ship with limited resources?  This could be a factor... 

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The point of my post is that this is an ethical situation. How would people decide what is the most ethical? Does it depend on the culture they grew up in? It's deliberately not black and white. Tuvix is not an easy black and white episode. That's on purpose.

How much of the reason that many people don't like killing Tuvix is because he is such a likable person. Would people think differently of he was unlikable.

I think that's what makes the episode compelling--Tuvix was likable.  Neelix was not exactly the most likable character either, and seeing him die wouldn't have been so bad.

The decision would have been MUCH easier if Tuvix was a jerk.

As someone who feels that Janeway did the right thing by restoring Tuvok and Neelix, I'm not really one to comment on whether it matters.  To me, it didn't matter.  Tuvok and Neelix ethically had to be restored to me.

I tried to touch on that a little by bringing up Enemy Within and change the facts so that Evil Kirk didn't want to return.  For me, as a believer that the original being(s) should get priority, it's no different.

But there are plenty of people here that feel Janeway got it wrong and Tuvix should have lived.  It's an interesting question.

 

 

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