Tal

Alas, poor Tuvix.

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Just be careful that you wouldn't start to view him as some kind of medical miracle specimen only, lol. ;)

That was my inner science geek coming out for a peek..... :P

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Just be careful that you wouldn't start to view him as some kind of medical miracle specimen only, lol. ;) I do get what you're saying, though.

I also find it curious that the EMH didn't overrule Janeway's command, he 'only' refused to throw the switch, so to speak. He could have done that as Chief Medical Officer. He could have said that he wants to study Tuvix further or whatever other excuse and she would have been powerless to prevent it. I can totally see ANY of the other doctors stepping in here if their respective captain had just basically ordered the death of one of their patients.

This was still way before the EMH really started standing up for himself. At this point in time, he was still more or less stuck to his programming, even if he was expanding and adapting.

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Not to mention, as far as I know, the EMH can't command the captain to do anything. Only relieve them of their command if it seems to be impairing their judgement. If he relieved Janeway, the others would do the same thing. As the episode showed...everyone on that crew, minus the EMH, were a bunch of cowards that bowed their heads while Tuvix pleaded for them to save him. So he'd relieve Janeway only to have Chakotay continue what she started.

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Not to mention, as far as I know, the EMH can't command the captain to do anything. Only relieve them of their command if it seems to be impairing their judgement. If he relieved Janeway, the others would do the same thing. As the episode showed...everyone on that crew, minus the EMH, were a bunch of cowards that bowed their heads while Tuvix pleaded for them to save him. So he'd relieve Janeway only to have Chakotay continue what she started.

Does no one in that "crew" realize that they're committing murder?

tumblr_lz7qj0XF6x1rpsvhdo1_400.gif

Wait, don't answer. I don't know why I'm even WONDERING about this. This IS Voyager, after all. I was more thinking of the EMH delaying Janeway's order by telling her whatever excuse he could make up so that he had the time to gather support among the crew for a mutiny, but... oh dear.

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Not to mention, as far as I know, the EMH can't command the captain to do anything. Only relieve them of their command if it seems to be impairing their judgement. If he relieved Janeway, the others would do the same thing. As the episode showed...everyone on that crew, minus the EMH, were a bunch of cowards that bowed their heads while Tuvix pleaded for them to save him. So he'd relieve Janeway only to have Chakotay continue what she started.

Does no one in that "crew" realize that they're committing murder?

tumblr_lz7qj0XF6x1rpsvhdo1_400.gif

Wait, don't answer. I don't know why I'm even WONDERING about this. This IS Voyager, after all. I was more thinking of the EMH delaying Janeway's order by telling her whatever excuse he could make up so that he had the time to gather support among the crew for a mutiny, but... oh dear.

My final comment on Picard and the way VGR handled Tuvix; to quote Locutus, "Picard would NEVER have approved." :Borg::cylonnono:

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Fish1941   
And let's face it, Tuvix was a whole lot better more interesting character than either Tuvok or Neelix.

Tuvix was a less irritating and probably a nicer character than either Tuvok or Neelix. But more interesting? Not by a long shot. I just don't equate lack of flaws with interesting.

My final comment on Picard and the way VGR handled Tuvix; to quote Locutus, "Picard would NEVER have approved."

I'm sorry, but I don't care. I'm not interested in Janeway, Picard or any of the other commanders being "the perfect Starfleet captain".

Edited by Fish1941

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I'm sorry, but I don't care. I'm not interested in Janeway, Picard or any of the other commanders being "the perfect Starfleet captain".

Okey dokey. Whatever.

And no one ever said they wanted 'the perfect captain', but I certainly don't want a lousy one either....

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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In all actuality, I think Janeway got pushed over the edge by Kes' emotinal breakdown when he pulled her into the argument. When I watch the episode, it always feel like she was actually half considering Tuvix's "I have a right to live" speech, until Kes came in crying. And then she went, "Oh no you just didn't!" and punished Tuvix for it.

My sense as well.

Just one more reason Insaneway is Insaneway.

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I try to sometimes curtail my hatred of VOY/Janeway (and usually fail) and try to realize what this episode was meant to be. It was just supposed to be a kind of morality tale. Something to make you wonder "wow...what would you do if you were in that situation? Impossible." There was nothing Janeway could have done that would have ended well for everyone. Which I do appreciate when my sci-fi goes in that direction, because in real life there is rarely a good situation for everyone.

And obviously this episode succeeded in making us think. So I'll appreciate it for what it is meant to be. This was better suited for an episodic show rather than a show with continuity between episodes. Otherwise, it makes Janeway look way too psychopathic. Sad at one moment and happy-go-lucky in another. Plus, Tuvok and Neelix had no fall out from this at all.

Putting that aside and judging this by the merits of 90s television and VOY trying to cross over from TNG's episodic format to DS9's continuity format, I will say this episode succeeded. Trek fans still talk about this as a big moment in VOY and Janeway's crowning achievement as a terrible captain. (although her fanboys would argue she did a good thing).

Which brings me to my next point: This episode almost seemed like it was meant to divide people into two groups. I don't mean the pro-Janeway and anti-Janeway camps. (It did do that, though). I meant it divided people in the same way Prime Directive episodes divide fans. What would YOU do kind of thing?

Some people would have done what Janeway did due to needing her tactical officer and..............................ship's cook back. Maybe some would even say due to selfishness of wanting their friend back. Regardless, they felt Janeway acted in the best interests of the ship which was in dire need of a tactical officer with Tuvok's experience. After all, VOY couldn't get a replacement at Space Dock.

Then there are those who feel that Tuvok and Neelix had already died. Bringing them back would be the equivalent of sacrificing a new born baby to bring back a dead relative. That killing Tuvix amounted to murder - plain and simple. I fall under this camp for a number of reasons. I do feel Janeway should have recused herself from this matter as she was best friends with Tuvok and seeking counsel on this matter from KES - the other half's girlfriend was irresponsible. It'd be like the court asking the family members of the murdered victim, instead of an impartial jury, what to do with the murderer. She should have handed this over to Chakotay to deal with.

Two things bother me about this episode besides the finale:

The entire crew siding with Janeway and simply staring Tuvix blankly in the face while he ran around the bridge beginning not to be murdered. They should have done this differently. I understand that they were trying to show that the crew was behind Janeway's decision, but all it did was make them look like accessory's to murder. It was sickening how no one, except for the EMH, stood up for Tuvix. Sickening. It makes it hard for me to root for these "heroes" when you see the way they behaved here. Then they have the nerve to lecture alien "bad guys" later on in the show about morality. This was such a low point for VOY and for Trek in general. Again, I applaud them for making this episode that made you question "hmmmm what would you do?" It's a good ethical question akin to "would you push one fat guy on a train track to stop a train from derailing and save five people." But...the way it was handled was so disgustingly poor.

One other thing bothers me and this is from OUT of the universe - Tuvix being ugly. I've read VOY fanboys defend this episode and almost 25% of them will answer with "besides, he was so ugly he deserved to die." Really? Deserved to die for being "ugly"? Really? This is coming from Star Trek fans? That is insanely scary. It reminds me of what some people say here about Star Trek: Insurrection. How the Ba'Ku were beautiful and the So'Na were monsters. So it makes it clear who is good and who is evil. With the Xindi, the Insectoids and the Reptillians were the aggressive monsters while the Primates were the nicer ones. Trek continues this nonsense. This is another reason why I am averse to siding with the Janeway fanboys, because if you peel away the layers of their argument, you see they are usually superficial and simply want to defend good ole captain Janeway...

Maybe the Founders were right and the solids are scared of what doesn't look like them. See why I'm a loyal servant of the Dominion? :P :P :P

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I for one would NEVER have given the order to kill Tuvix. He was a life form. He begged for his LIFE, ffs. I would have gone on with Tuvix in whichever capacity. I could not stand by and murder an innocent, sentient being just to bring back two others, no matter who they are (even if one of them was Jean-Luc). This 'fundamental' opinion of mine makes me hate the mere existence of this episode. Of course I get it that we're meant to think about the implications, but they went at it the wrong way. (Get it? Janeway? Wrongway? Hahaha.) All this episode does is make look everyone look like psychopaths who follow their even more pyschopathic leader out of some kind of Stockholm Syndrome loyalty.

And WTF about Tuvix being "ugly". What kind of argument even IS that...

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I for one would NEVER have given the order to kill Tuvix. He was a life form. He begged for his LIFE, ffs. I would have gone on with Tuvix in whichever capacity. I could not stand by and murder an innocent, sentient being just to bring back two others, no matter who they are (even if one of them was Jean-Luc). This 'fundamental' opinion of mine makes me hate the mere existence of this episode. Of course I get it that we're meant to think about the implications, but they went at it the wrong way. (Get it? Janeway? Wrongway? Hahaha.) All this episode does is make look everyone look like psychopaths who follow their even more pyschopathic leader out of some kind of Stockholm Syndrome loyalty.

And WTF about Tuvix being "ugly". What kind of argument even IS that...

^

THIS!!

1367496144-golf-clap.gif

One other thing bothers me and this is from OUT of the universe - Tuvix being ugly. I've read VOY fanboys defend this episode and almost 25% of them will answer with "besides, he was so ugly he deserved to die." Really? Deserved to die for being "ugly"? Really? This is coming from Star Trek fans? That is insanely scary. It reminds me of what some people say here about Star Trek: Insurrection. How the Ba'Ku were beautiful and the So'Na were monsters. So it makes it clear who is good and who is evil. With the Xindi, the Insectoids and the Reptillians were the aggressive monsters while the Primates were the nicer ones. Trek continues this nonsense. This is another reason why I am averse to siding with the Janeway fanboys, because if you peel away the layers of their argument, you see they are usually superficial and simply want to defend good ole captain Janeway...

And yes, what KIND of argument is "Tuvix is ugly and therefore needs to DIE"?? The penalty for being less-than-gorgeous is death? I hope that didn't come from THESE boards....

ub3LfS4.gif

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This episode is hard for me to watch, because emotionally I liked Tuvix as well. However, the reason the moral quandry even exists is because human life is sacred. Its like the old example, "you have 5 people in a raft built for 4. If one doesn't jump, everyone dies." There's no easy answer to that, because while most people want to protect others' lives, we want even more to protect our own.

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maneth   

I'm afraid this episode sealed Voyager's fate as my least favorite Trek show as well.

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Hammer   

We knew he was just a guest star going into this episode. It's too bad that the ending was written this way, because that is what this episode is remembered for and not the fine performance of the guest star.

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I'm afraid this episode sealed Voyager's fate as my least favorite Trek show as well.

Me too.

The decision to kill Tuvix (who literally BEGGED for his life) is just too much; even the EMH couldn't do it. From then on, I just saw Janeway in a different light.

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kenman   

I'm afraid this episode sealed Voyager's fate as my least favorite Trek show as well.

Me too.

The decision to kill Tuvix (who literally BEGGED for his life) is just too much; even the EMH couldn't do it. From then on, I just saw Janeway in a different light.

My brother has taken to calling Janeway "the Homicidal maniac" because she often decides to make the decisions that result in someone's death, and even genocide (Prime Directive is quite the excuse!)

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I'm afraid this episode sealed Voyager's fate as my least favorite Trek show as well.

Me too.

The decision to kill Tuvix (who literally BEGGED for his life) is just too much; even the EMH couldn't do it. From then on, I just saw Janeway in a different light.

My brother has taken to calling Janeway "the Homicidal maniac" because she often decides to make the decisions that result in someone's death, and even genocide (Prime Directive is quite the excuse!)

"Katey Insaneway" is common in my circle.

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Sim   

As it's been a long time that I saw this episode, I have a question:

After Tuvix had been separated into Tuvok and Neelix again, did both have memories of their experiences as Tuvix?

If so, I don't think it was murder. Tuvix continues to live in both of them, so he was never killed. He was just distributed over two different individuals. (Not exactly, but much like Riker had been distributed over William and Thomas.)

Edited by Sim

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As it's been a long time that I saw this episode, I have a question:

After Tuvix had been separated into Tuvok and Neelix again, did both have memories of their experiences as Tuvix?

If so, I don't think it was murder. Tuvix continues to live in both of them, so he was never killed. He was just distributed over two different individuals. (Not exactly, but much like Riker had been distributed over William and Thomas.)

No indication whether they do or don't. The episode ends almost immediately after they're separated.

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As it's been a long time that I saw this episode, I have a question:

After Tuvix had been separated into Tuvok and Neelix again, did both have memories of their experiences as Tuvix?

If so, I don't think it was murder. Tuvix continues to live in both of them, so he was never killed. He was just distributed over two different individuals. (Not exactly, but much like Riker had been distributed over William and Thomas.)

No, he was killed. It is irrelevant if they have memories of Tuvix. He was a distinct individual that was sentient. Splitting him into two separate other individuals is not keeping him alive. It was a death sentence.

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As it's been a long time that I saw this episode, I have a question:

After Tuvix had been separated into Tuvok and Neelix again, did both have memories of their experiences as Tuvix?

If so, I don't think it was murder. Tuvix continues to live in both of them, so he was never killed. He was just distributed over two different individuals. (Not exactly, but much like Riker had been distributed over William and Thomas.)

No, he was killed. It is irrelevant if they have memories of Tuvix. He was a distinct individual that was sentient. Splitting him into two separate other individuals is not keeping him alive. It was a death sentence.

This.

And the other side of the blade to that bit of logic is that since Tuvix had the memories and experiences of both men, neither was really dead, so there was no need to separate them. You can't convincingly argue (I think) that the operation of the ship needed Neelix returned as a distinct entity.

Edited by prometheus59650

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Sim   

As it's been a long time that I saw this episode, I have a question:

After Tuvix had been separated into Tuvok and Neelix again, did both have memories of their experiences as Tuvix?

If so, I don't think it was murder. Tuvix continues to live in both of them, so he was never killed. He was just distributed over two different individuals. (Not exactly, but much like Riker had been distributed over William and Thomas.)

No, he was killed. It is irrelevant if they have memories of Tuvix. He was a distinct individual that was sentient. Splitting him into two separate other individuals is not keeping him alive. It was a death sentence.

Uhm ... why? How would splitting one distinct individual into two others equal "murder"? We all are different distinct individuals from one second to the next. You are not the same person anymore than you were one year ago, or one day. All that connects you with your past self is your memory (and that of others).

Of course this is becoming very philosophical at this point, but I don't think the situation is as clear cut as you seem to suggest. (But since that VOY episode didn't even address this problem, it was crap, I agree.)

And what about Kirk in "The Enemy Within"? Were his two selves murdered too, when they were reunited eventually?

Just playing devil's advocate here, obviously. ;)

But this aside, Prom...

As it's been a long time that I saw this episode, I have a question:

After Tuvix had been separated into Tuvok and Neelix again, did both have memories of their experiences as Tuvix?

If so, I don't think it was murder. Tuvix continues to live in both of them, so he was never killed. He was just distributed over two different individuals. (Not exactly, but much like Riker had been distributed over William and Thomas.)

No, he was killed. It is irrelevant if they have memories of Tuvix. He was a distinct individual that was sentient. Splitting him into two separate other individuals is not keeping him alive. It was a death sentence.

This.

And the other side of the blade to that bit of logic is that since Tuvix had the memories and experiences of both men, neither was really dead, so there was no need to separate them. You can't convincingly argue (I think) that the operation of the ship needed Neelix returned as a distinct entity.

... is right, of course.

Janeway's decision still makes no sense, even when doing some philosophical acrobatics.

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And what about Kirk in "The Enemy Within"? Were his two selves murdered too, when they were reunited eventually?
Except in this case it's heavily implied if not stated outright that neither Kirk could physically live without the other. Both halves exhibited slowly failing life signs and "good" Kirk's reasoning abilities took a massive hit. The argument that the Kirks had to be put back together regardless of the risk is pretty unassailable.
No such issues existed with Tuvix. Indeed, had they implied through a scene of him at work or through some exposition that Tuvix was somehow not up to par in the ability to do his duty when compared to Tuvok I could have bought that as a rationale to pull Tuvix apart. (i.e. she needs a Chief of Security that can be at 100% here in the Great Nothing)
But there was none of that at all.
On the face of what was shown on screen, there was no reason to kill a man in order to save two that were already dead.
Edited by prometheus59650

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Hammer   

And what about Kirk in "The Enemy Within"? Were his two selves murdered too, when they were reunited eventually?
Except in this case it's heavily implied if not stated outright that neither Kirk could physically live without the other. Both halves exhibited slowly failing life signs and "good" Kirk's reasoning abilities took a massive hit. The argument that the Kirks had to be put back together regardless of the risk is pretty unassailable.
No such issues existed with Tuvix. Indeed, had they implied through a scene of him at work or through some exposition that Tuvix was somehow not up to par in the ability to do his duty when compared to Tuvok I could have bought that as a rationale to pull Tuvix apart. (i.e. she needs a Chief of Security that can be at 100% here in the Great Nothing)
But there was none of that at all.
On the face of what was shown on screen, there was no reason to kill a man in order to save two that were already dead.

Maybe they should have wrote in medical problems with Tuvix that could only be resolved by splitting them. At the end of the episode though, while there was no conversation where they discuss their recent memories, Tuvok and Neelix were clearly happy to be alive. If they had no memory of the events, wouldn't they treat it like any other beam up? Why the emotional scene? I think they remembered Tuvix and still were happy to be free of each other.

In 'Thine Own Self' S7 E16, Troi tries to earn her promotion to Commander. In her exam, she was forced to order Holo-Geordi to fix some kind of radiation leak or something, which would certainly have killed him but saved the ship and other lives. Commanders are forced to make tough decisions in the Trek universe, they issue orders which can get groups of officers killed to save the lives of others. Those that heap scorn on Voyager as a series as a result of this episode I think are experiencing some selective memory about precedent in other series. Kobayashi Maru anyone?

Edited by Hammer

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