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Kirk on TNG - What Could Have Been

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Not to mention that it makes no sense for Jean-Luc to be so helpless with that frying pan. He grew up in a household without food replicators because Maurice didn't want any technology and I refuse to believe that Yvette or he never taught Jean-Luc and Robert how to cook (I doubt Robert was any good at it, it's why he married Marie, "the best cook in France".) Jean-Luc may be a little rusty because he lives with replicators all the time these days but there's no way he's as helpless as the movie makes it appear. I know it was added for the lulz but still, it disregards canon just for a cheap laugh and I'm not really much into that.

And yes, Kirk and Jean-Luc aren't on an equal level, it really is Kirk the hero and Jean-Luc the puppy. It's done MUCH worse in the dreadful Shatner novels but Generations really started this trend. Kirk's ego is just too big. If TNG had had an episode with Kirk, the very same thing would have happened. Not with Sisko, he is a very dominant guy, too. He would have butted heads with Kirk and then they'd have gone on as an equal level team from there. Jean-Luc just isn't alpha male macho enough for that. He's too subtle and gentle. (And that's why I like him and would prefer him over Kirk or Sisko at ANY given time. But that goes without saying.)

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Not to mention that it makes no sense for Jean-Luc to be so helpless with that frying pan. He grew up in a household without food replicators because Maurice didn't want any technology and I refuse to believe that Yvette or he never taught Jean-Luc and Robert how to cook (I doubt Robert was any good at it, it's why he married Marie, "the best cook in France".) Jean-Luc may be a little rusty because he lives with replicators all the time these days but there's no way he's as helpless as the movie makes it appear. I know it was added for the lulz but still, it disregards canon just for a cheap laugh and I'm not really much into that.

And yes, Kirk and Jean-Luc aren't on an equal level, it really is Kirk the hero and Jean-Luc the puppy. It's done MUCH worse in the dreadful Shatner novels but Generations really started this trend. Kirk's ego is just too big. If TNG had had an episode with Kirk, the very same thing would have happened. Not with Sisko, he is a very dominant guy, too. He would have butted heads with Kirk and then they'd have gone on as an equal level team from there. Jean-Luc just isn't alpha male macho enough for that. He's too subtle and gentle. (And that's why I like him and would prefer him over Kirk or Sisko at ANY given time. But that goes without saying.)

It seemed as though Picard was rendered somewhat incompetent looking in GEN (a very out-of-character version of himself indeed) just to bolster Shatner/Kirk's ego in the movie. And yes, growing up on a French vineyard, I think he'd know his way around a kitchen (even I cook, and I'm only 1/4 French... :giggle: ). He was almost made to look buffoonish; even during his first (unassisted) fist fight with Soran, Picard seems to just take the blows without returning them. Granted, he may have been a bit dazed, but this is the man who held his own against Klingons and Nausicaans. I sincerely doubt a 300 year old El Aurian is that much of a challenge....

And yes, I agree; Picard is a far more sensitive leader than Kirk was. I am a Kirk fan (and I love TOS), but if I were serving on a Starfleet ship? I'd rather serve under Picard (Kirk can be very erratically tempered). The Picard-centrered episodes of TNG were usually my favorite as well (in particular, "Family" & "Inner Light").

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Not to mention that it makes no sense for Jean-Luc to be so helpless with that frying pan. He grew up in a household without food replicators because Maurice didn't want any technology and I refuse to believe that Yvette or he never taught Jean-Luc and Robert how to cook (I doubt Robert was any good at it, it's why he married Marie, "the best cook in France".) Jean-Luc may be a little rusty because he lives with replicators all the time these days but there's no way he's as helpless as the movie makes it appear. I know it was added for the lulz but still, it disregards canon just for a cheap laugh and I'm not really much into that.

And yes, Kirk and Jean-Luc aren't on an equal level, it really is Kirk the hero and Jean-Luc the puppy. It's done MUCH worse in the dreadful Shatner novels but Generations really started this trend. Kirk's ego is just too big. If TNG had had an episode with Kirk, the very same thing would have happened. Not with Sisko, he is a very dominant guy, too. He would have butted heads with Kirk and then they'd have gone on as an equal level team from there. Jean-Luc just isn't alpha male macho enough for that. He's too subtle and gentle. (And that's why I like him and would prefer him over Kirk or Sisko at ANY given time. But that goes without saying.)

It seemed as though Picard was rendered somewhat incompetent looking in GEN (a very out-of-character version of himself indeed) just to bolster Shatner/Kirk's ego in the movie. And yes, growing up on a French vineyard, I think he'd know his way around a kitchen (even I cook, and I'm only 1/4 French... :giggle: ). He was almost made to look buffoonish; even during his first (unassisted) fist fight with Soran, Picard seems to just take the blows without returning them. Granted, he may have been a bit dazed, but this is the man who held his own against Klingons and Nausicaans. I sincerely doubt a 300 year old El Aurian is that much of a challenge....

And yes, I agree; Picard is a far more sensitive leader than Kirk was. I am a Kirk fan (and I love TOS), but if I were serving on a Starfleet ship? I'd rather serve under Picard (Kirk can be very erratically tempered). The Picard-centrered episodes of TNG were usually my favorite as well (in particular, "Family" & "Inner Light").

I generally do like the idea of iconic captains meeting, but NOT if the "older" captain takes over and renders the "newer" pretty much useless because his ego is so big that it stretches more than halfway across the galaxy. It has always bothered me as well how incompetent Jean-Luc appears when he fights Soran alone but as soon as Kirk is there as well, everything suddenly goes smoothly. Jean-Luc is more than capable of handling hand-to-hand combat. And indeed, he can take on Klingons and Nausicaans, why the hell would he have ANY kind of problem with an El-Aurian. I mean they don't seem to be very big on hand-to-hand combat - Guinan probably wouldn't be keeping that huge rifle under her bar if they were. By all logical means Jean-Luc should have been able to kick Soran's butt simply because of his Starfleet training, he wouldn't even be needing special fighting skills for this.

Jean-Luc doesn't even have to be a GREAT cook (I know the stereotype of 'French folks are all great cooks'), but I sincerely doubt that he has never seen a frying pan. I mean even RIKER can cook somewhat and he most likely didn't even grow up without a replicator in Alaska. The whole scene in that kitchen is just another "let's render Picard incompetent and turn him into comic relief because KIRK IS THE REAL GOD" moment.

Don't get me wrong, I like Kirk just fine as a captain in his own series and in his own movies, but that is where he belongs. Jean-Luc and he... well, it just doesn't fit.Kirk is WAY too dominant. :P As for myself, I wouldn't want to serve under Jean-Luc omg self tmi stop it

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The worst thing is, I'm not even sorry for typing that.

tumblr_mfjdvnUVd11r8l821o10_r1_250.gif

That gif is so damn perfect.... forgive me if I steal it sometime. :thumbup:

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Haw! Yew two. :laugh:

I'm convinced, from all that you both say... Kirk and Picard's meeting was not one of minds and philosophies - two very different men, even if they hailed from the same organization and culture and shared a similarly exalted position. I don't think it's much to do with them hailing from different times, either - it's personality, quirks, ways of doing things (with much of this of course communicated by the actors who played the characters).

Funny how that happens. I think I'd like to hang out and get drunk with Kirk, but I think I'd probably get more from a conversation with the Renaissance man that is Jean-Luc Picard. I like Kirk, but I admire Picard. We could all aspire to be as wise and considered, I s'pose.

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On the issue of Picard and the frying pan. I think I saw an entirely different scene than everyone else. Picard didn't look incompetent or ignorant on what to do. Kirk tossed him a sizzling frying pan quickly while he ran to attend to something else. I don't care if you're Iron Chef - if someone throws a hot pan right into your hands unexpectedly, you're going to be a bit surprised. In addition, Picard was more focused on snapping Kirk out of his denial and convincing him of where they were, that he just focused on that.

And if anyone looked foolish in that scene...it was Kirk using a metal utensil to scratch against a teflon pan. Savior of the universe but destroyer of the non-stick portion of pans.

They were great, those Cinefantastiques! I loved those annual rundowns on the writing and making of the show.

Mr Picard, you're entirely correct that TNG did just fine without Kirk. It would've been a fan dream, is all - one we eventually got with Generations, in a sense. I just think that the eventual meeting of two of Trek's biggest icons could've been handled with greater finesse, and somehow doing that in the environs of a TV show seems more possible. Perhaps because such care was taken generally with the writing of TV Trek, at least in the sense that it was already a finely-honed and already running writing machine, while the movie versions are always trying to satisfy so many different demands.

I'm not a fan of Generations (or any of the TNG movies except First Contact) at all, so I understand your "fan dream" approach, most definitely. I just think that you were actually right when you said that Kirk would fit better to Sisko personality-wise. They would get along just fine. Sure Jean-Luc and Kirk got along somewhat nicely in Generations, but this would not have lasted very long. They're both incredibly stubborn and have their own, very different ways of approaching their respective goals. They would have gotten on each other's nerves pretty quickly and the last thing most of the fans would've liked to see would've been two captains bickering about nothing.

Generally, I've always viewed TOS and DS9 as a "pair", with DS9 being some sort of "darker, evolved TOS". I dunno, so many things on DS9 were directly based on stuff we saw on TOS (the tribbles thing, for example, or the mirror universe) that I've always found that these two series relate to one another in more ways than either of them relates to TNG. Sure TNG was TOS' direct successor but it had a fundamentally different approach and a fundamentally different command crew and the lack of cowboy diplomacy is evident. DS9, on the other hand, has LOTS and LOTS and LOOOOOOTS of cowboy diplomacy and with Sisko it went back to the sometimes rather aggressive approach that Kirk often displayed. I'm pretty sure Kirk would have felt "at home" on DS9 before and during the Dominion War - this would've been something for him to deal with, not TNG's endless diplomatic ping pong talks with the Romulans and others. He would've been bored in no time aboard the Enterprise-D.

Damn...I've never looked at it that way. I can't believe there are still times that someone can make me look at Trek in a different way. But you're right. Sisko truly is Kirk's spiritual successor in a lot of ways. I'll never watch that scene where Sisko meets Kirk quite the same again. And to be honest, you're right. TOS wasn't as uptight as TNG (no offense TNG-lovers). Kirk broke rules. Kicked ass. He was The Sisko of his day I suppose. I guess most people automatically assumed that Picard is Kirk's successor because of the Enterprise. But you're right.

Thanks for letting me view DS9 in a different light.

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And if anyone looked foolish in that scene...it was Kirk using a metal utensil to scratch against a teflon pan. Savior of the universe but destroyer of the non-stick portion of pans.

As one who loves to cook, I wince when I watch that scene... I just hope it was some form of 'super-teflon' that they've found in the 23rd century that doesn't scratch when you scrape it with a metal whisk like that.... sets my teeth on edge.

st7cs.jpg

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Like Sehlat Vie, I always thought that DS9 as a whole seemed a more obvious spiritual successor to TOS than TNG. It really is about life in the 24th century, if not down on the streets, at least DS9's promenade. You got to see the workings of a 24th century society, and Sisko, while tied to Federation principles often operated outside of them, as did Kirk on occasion. They were of the Federation, but far enough away sometimes to follow their own instincts or rules if they thought it was necessary. Sometimes their personal morality superseded that of the Federation.

Picard was on the flagship. Can you imagine if he was spotted doing similar? He was the perfect guy to captain the flagship of course, and he was far from being inflexible. But he had to be seen to play by the rules.

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Haw! Yew two. :laugh:

I'm convinced, from all that you both say... Kirk and Picard's meeting was not one of minds and philosophies - two very different men, even if they hailed from the same organization and culture and shared a similarly exalted position. I don't think it's much to do with them hailing from different times, either - it's personality, quirks, ways of doing things (with much of this of course communicated by the actors who played the characters).

Funny how that happens. I think I'd like to hang out and get drunk with Kirk, but I think I'd probably get more from a conversation with the Renaissance man that is Jean-Luc Picard. I like Kirk, but I admire Picard. We could all aspire to be as wise and considered, I s'pose.

I agree - they met just to stop Soran. Nothing more. They wouldn't have become friends even though the movie goes out of its way to make it appear otherwise, what with the horses and stuff. It doesn't convince me, though. They have such different personalities. Sure, sometimes differences are what makes a friendship work in the first place (I've had this kind of friendship myself) but Kirk's ego would get in the way of that in no time. He would want to take charge of everything, set every rule, and so on. Also, he would make the friendship a constant challenge because they both carry the same rank and because Jean-Luc commands the Enterprise. He would probably even try to tell Jean-Luc how to run things at first. Kirk is most comfortable when he knows that, in the end, it is HIM who holds all the command cards.

I admire Jean-Luc as well, but in a completely different way, lol. I could never be in awe of his commanding presence or something. It's because I see the human being first, not the starship captain (which doesn't mean that I ignore his job, I know that the Enterprise is more important to him than anything or anyone else, I ain't fooling myself there, it's something that one just has to accept or they won't get anywhere with him). I've had so many people tell me that they'd crawl under a desk if he yelled at them. I'd simply yell back and be all like "Who the hell are YOU to yell at me, now wait a minute right there, Mister". I simply take a different approach. But I do understand that the rigid authority that he radiates is something that most people are afraid of or at least respect the hell out of. It's interesting for me to witness, actually. I hear this a lot, the whole "I like Kirk but I respect the hell out of Picard" thing. It's rather common. Fascinating.

On the issue of Picard and the frying pan. I think I saw an entirely different scene than everyone else. Picard didn't look incompetent or ignorant on what to do. Kirk tossed him a sizzling frying pan quickly while he ran to attend to something else. I don't care if you're Iron Chef - if someone throws a hot pan right into your hands unexpectedly, you're going to be a bit surprised. In addition, Picard was more focused on snapping Kirk out of his denial and convincing him of where they were, that he just focused on that.

I dunno, to me it always looked like as if he has no idea how to handle a frying pan. The way in which he tries to stir whatever is inside looks kinda awkward, but then, maybe you're right and that's just his way of cooking, haha.

And if anyone looked foolish in that scene...it was Kirk using a metal utensil to scratch against a teflon pan. Savior of the universe but destroyer of the non-stick portion of pans.

LMFAO! I am a complete loser when it comes to cooking (give me things to fix and I fix them but tell me to fix a meal and I am at a loss as to how to proceed, I can't cook worth a damn - only the more reason to marry a Frenchman, haha /stereotyping) but even I know that scratching teflon pans is not a good idea. I never realized that Kirk was doing that. Thanks for making me giggle!

Damn...I've never looked at it that way. I can't believe there are still times that someone can make me look at Trek in a different way. But you're right. Sisko truly is Kirk's spiritual successor in a lot of ways. I'll never watch that scene where Sisko meets Kirk quite the same again. And to be honest, you're right. TOS wasn't as uptight as TNG (no offense TNG-lovers). Kirk broke rules. Kicked ass. He was The Sisko of his day I suppose. I guess most people automatically assumed that Picard is Kirk's successor because of the Enterprise. But you're right.

Thanks for letting me view DS9 in a different light.

Aww, you're welcome! Truth to be told, the theory isn't mine either, I heard it way back then when I entered the fandom but I quickly found out that I agreed with it. It really makes DS9's Tribbles episode even more special to watch. I've always liked the parallels between Kirk and Sisko behavior-wise. They're both easy to irritate and they both tend to take "unusual measures" to get things done. (I don't mean this in a bad way, well, mostly.) If there's any TOS captain who shares a lot of parallels with Jean-Luc, it's Christopher Pike. He's the JLP prototype, not Kirk. Jean-Luc definitely follows in Pike's footsteps command-style wise (minus the horrible "wtf, a woman on my bridge" sexism, of course). It comes as no surprise to me that Pike is my second-favorite captain and that I'd take him over Kirk, Sisko, Archer and Janeway any day. (But then, I'd take ANY other captain over Janeway, lol.)

And no worries, no offense taken from this TNG lover. ;)

Like Sehlat Vie, I always thought that DS9 as a whole seemed a more obvious spiritual successor to TOS than TNG. It really is about life in the 24th century, if not down on the streets, at least DS9's promenade. You got to see the workings of a 24th century society, and Sisko, while tied to Federation principles often operated outside of them, as did Kirk on occasion. They were of the Federation, but far enough away sometimes to follow their own instincts or rules if they thought it was necessary. Sometimes their personal morality superseded that of the Federation.

Picard was on the flagship. Can you imagine if he was spotted doing similar? He was the perfect guy to captain the flagship of course, and he was far from being inflexible. But he had to be seen to play by the rules.

Hmm, he did command the Stargazer before the Enterprise. From what he tells, he ran it a bit differently than he runs the Enterprise. That little story about bothering the Cardassians once, for example. He'd never do something like that with the Enterprise, lol. Or him telling Scotty that they always had to improvise because the ship was always on the verge of "flying apart at the seams". This also requires a LOT of flexibility from a commanding officer. Therefore I would simply say that his command style matches the ship he commands. We do get a small glimpse of what he was like when he commanded the Stargazer in "The Battle", and to me his command style seemed a bit more rogue-ish. It is made clear that he shared a somewhat different relationship with his crew. (Most notably Jack Crusher, who was his... erm... best friend.) Sure he also has a family with the Enterprise crew as well, but there is always a bit of distance between him and the others. Something tells me that this was different aboard the Stargazer. Part of this is probably age-related - I would definitely say that command style changes with age. But also with the ship that you get. The shiny flagship with all its prestige is something entirely different from a bucket (I mean this in a loving way) like the Stargazer. If we had gotten an episode that had really showed him aboard the Stargazer during those times, I think many fans would've been surprised to see what he was like back then. So, I do agree that the flagship needs to play by the rules and he was picked as its captain because he knows how to play by the rules - but there is also this rogue-ish personality trait inside him that simply rarely gets a chance to get through. (He does rely on it sometimes, though, most notably during "Starship Mine".)

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And if anyone looked foolish in that scene...it was Kirk using a metal utensil to scratch against a teflon pan. Savior of the universe but destroyer of the non-stick portion of pans.

As one who loves to cook, I wince when I watch that scene... I just hope it was some form of 'super-teflon' that they've found in the 23rd century that doesn't scratch when you scrape it with a metal whisk like that.... sets my teeth on edge.

st7cs.jpg

I'm sure Scotty altered time and gave emeril lagasse the schematics to super-teflon in exchange for some herbs and spices needed to power up a Klingon warp drive.

Picard was on the flagship. Can you imagine if he was spotted doing similar? He was the perfect guy to captain the flagship of course, and he was far from being inflexible. But he had to be seen to play by the rules.

But Kirk was on the flagship and broke the rules several times. ;)

On the issue of Picard and the frying pan. I think I saw an entirely different scene than everyone else. Picard didn't look incompetent or ignorant on what to do. Kirk tossed him a sizzling frying pan quickly while he ran to attend to something else. I don't care if you're Iron Chef - if someone throws a hot pan right into your hands unexpectedly, you're going to be a bit surprised. In addition, Picard was more focused on snapping Kirk out of his denial and convincing him of where they were, that he just focused on that.

I dunno, to me it always looked like as if he has no idea how to handle a frying pan. The way in which he tries to stir whatever is inside looks kinda awkward, but then, maybe you're right and that's just his way of cooking, haha.

I think it was more confusion at Kirk's behavior. He's trying to tell Kirk that they're trapped in a strange anomaly and that he never died and all Kirk could focus on is where the oregano is.

And if anyone looked foolish in that scene...it was Kirk using a metal utensil to scratch against a teflon pan. Savior of the universe but destroyer of the non-stick portion of pans.

LMFAO! I am a complete loser when it comes to cooking (give me things to fix and I fix them but tell me to fix a meal and I am at a loss as to how to proceed, I can't cook worth a damn - only the more reason to marry a Frenchman, haha /stereotyping) but even I know that scratching teflon pans is not a good idea. I never realized that Kirk was doing that. Thanks for making me giggle!

Haha no prob. :P

Damn...I've never looked at it that way. I can't believe there are still times that someone can make me look at Trek in a different way. But you're right. Sisko truly is Kirk's spiritual successor in a lot of ways. I'll never watch that scene where Sisko meets Kirk quite the same again. And to be honest, you're right. TOS wasn't as uptight as TNG (no offense TNG-lovers). Kirk broke rules. Kicked ass. He was The Sisko of his day I suppose. I guess most people automatically assumed that Picard is Kirk's successor because of the Enterprise. But you're right.

Thanks for letting me view DS9 in a different light.

Aww, you're welcome! Truth to be told, the theory isn't mine either, I heard it way back then when I entered the fandom but I quickly found out that I agreed with it. It really makes DS9's Tribbles episode even more special to watch. I've always liked the parallels between Kirk and Sisko behavior-wise. They're both easy to irritate and they both tend to take "unusual measures" to get things done. (I don't mean this in a bad way, well, mostly.) If there's any TOS captain who shares a lot of parallels with Jean-Luc, it's Christopher Pike. He's the JLP prototype, not Kirk. Jean-Luc definitely follows in Pike's footsteps command-style wise (minus the horrible "wtf, a woman on my bridge" sexism, of course). It comes as no surprise to me that Pike is my second-favorite captain and that I'd take him over Kirk, Sisko, Archer and Janeway any day. (But then, I'd take ANY other captain over Janeway, lol.)

And no worries, no offense taken from this TNG lover. ;)

That's an interesting take on it. What makes you feel that Picard is Pike's succesor of sorts? Do you also include Abrams' Pike too?

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^ No, I haven't seen any NuTrek and I want to keep it that way. Therefore I have no opinion on NuPike other than "meh, not interested". I was referring only to the "real" Pike (to me), the TOS version.

Whenever I watch "The Cage" (my favorite Trek pilot episode btw), I see a lot of Jean-Luc in Pike's behavior. There's the obvious things such as having a "Number One" and his use of the term "engage", but there's also the subtle hints. His whole manner of glaring and snapping at everyone on the bridge, for example. His grumpiness. His rather cautious approach - he's someone who prefers to talk first and fight only when he's trapped. Sure he has traits that are more Kirk-ish, such as having a drink with Boyce, but all in all he's a lot more Jean-Luc than Kirk. It's the whole guy, even the way in which he moves reminds me of Jean-Luc, or rather an early version of him. Honestly, a line like "What are we running here, a cadet ship, Number One?" just SCREAM season 1 Jean-Luc and I guarantee that MANY fans would think it's a JLP line if they were simply given the line without any further information. It's not just the "Number One" part, it simply IS the same kind of line that early!Jean-Luc uses. ("Is the whole ship deaf?" and such.) I also think he and Jean-Luc would get along much better than Kirk and Jean-Luc EVER would. Pike would feel much more at home in the TNG universe, too. He'd make a fine diplomat after only a bit of adjustment.

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^ No, I haven't seen any NuTrek and I want to keep it that way. Therefore I have no opinion on NuPike other than "meh, not interested". I was referring only to the "real" Pike (to me), the TOS version.

Whenever I watch "The Cage" (my favorite Trek pilot episode btw), I see a lot of Jean-Luc in Pike's behavior. There's the obvious things such as having a "Number One" and his use of the term "engage", but there's also the subtle hints. His whole manner of glaring and snapping at everyone on the bridge, for example. His grumpiness. His rather cautious approach - he's someone who prefers to talk first and fight only when he's trapped. Sure he has traits that are more Kirk-ish, such as having a drink with Boyce, but all in all he's a lot more Jean-Luc than Kirk. It's the whole guy, even the way in which he moves reminds me of Jean-Luc, or rather an early version of him. Honestly, a line like "What are we running here, a cadet ship, Number One?" just SCREAM season 1 Jean-Luc and I guarantee that MANY fans would think it's a JLP line if they were simply given the line without any further information. It's not just the "Number One" part, it simply IS the same kind of line that early!Jean-Luc uses. ("Is the whole ship deaf?" and such.) I also think he and Jean-Luc would get along much better than Kirk and Jean-Luc EVER would. Pike would feel much more at home in the TNG universe, too. He'd make a fine diplomat after only a bit of adjustment.

Can't remember where I read it, but I recall Roddenberry once saying that TNG was actually a bit closer to his original Star Trek concept than TOS actually turned out to be. He envisioned the TOS characters as more of an ensemble, but over the three years it kind of turned into a troika instead (Kirk, Spock & McCoy). And if you look at Pato Guzman's original sketches for the TOS Enterprise bridge, it actually looks a bit more like the 1701-D (below):

bridgeconceptgb3.jpg

And yes, Pike definitely channels more of the more thoughtful, softer spoken captain than the more 'type-A' Kirk was. Nimoy once said (in the video "Mind Meld") that his shouting in "The Cage" was because Pike was playing it low-key, so he punched it up to differentiate. And when Shatner came aboard with his trademark alpha personality, Spock was changed to a more type-B personality.

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And yes, Pike definitely channels more of the more thoughtful, softer spoken captain than the more 'type-A' Kirk was. Nimoy once said (in the video "Mind Meld") that his shouting in "The Cage" was because Pike was playing it low-key, so he punched it up to differentiate. And when Shatner came aboard with his trademark alpha personality, Spock was changed to a more type-B personality.

I had the same impression - that laughing (!) and yelling Spock in "The Cage" was partly due to the fact that Pike was so calm. There was a danger of things being too "boring" - as much as I would love to have seen Jean-Luc and a Vulcan first officer, the whole thing would've crumbled to dust because two logical and rational commanding officers just doesn't make enough of a difference. There needs to be some sort of dynamic tension between captain and first officer (ehehehehehe). To make both of them rational and calm just... well it would make things kinda boring for most viewers.

Pike was the wrong captain for the times during which TOS was produced. The network and probably also the audience wanted a space cowboy alpha male hero, not a calm and rational captain who prefers to think before he does anything. Gene did indeed say that TNG was the Trek he always wanted, so, my guess is that when he planned TOS back then, he realized that now was not the time for a calm captain but he revived the idea when TNG was planned because 'this time it might just work'. And it did, so... still, I am one of those few who definitely would have preferred for Pike to remain. Just a personality type preference.

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Well said to both of you. You guys make a lot of valid points and it's kind of cool to think of Pike as the Picard of the 23rd century in ways. Shame they never met.

BTW, I know you said you don't want anything to do with NuTrek, but Greenwood's performance as Pike is pretty good. Just sayin!

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Well said to both of you. You guys make a lot of valid points and it's kind of cool to think of Pike as the Picard of the 23rd century in ways. Shame they never met.

BTW, I know you said you don't want anything to do with NuTrek, but Greenwood's performance as Pike is pretty good. Just sayin!

I wrote a ficlet about them meeting (in some kind of way, heh) and it was one of the most fascinating experiences for me as a writer because, well, their personalities match so well, I didn't even have to improvise because they just kept talking to one another. I, too, wish they had met in canon in some way, though. It would've been far more interesting than Jean-Luc meeting Kirk.

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Well said to both of you. You guys make a lot of valid points and it's kind of cool to think of Pike as the Picard of the 23rd century in ways. Shame they never met.

BTW, I know you said you don't want anything to do with NuTrek, but Greenwood's performance as Pike is pretty good. Just sayin!

I wrote a ficlet about them meeting (in some kind of way, heh) and it was one of the most fascinating experiences for me as a writer because, well, their personalities match so well, I didn't even have to improvise because they just kept talking to one another. I, too, wish they had met in canon in some way, though. It would've been far more interesting than Jean-Luc meeting Kirk.

I could see Pike and Picard (both P-named; isn't that adorable? :P ) working together much better than Kirk and Picard.

And yes Founder, I agree; Bruce Greenwood's Pike is terrific (I also enjoyed Ben Cross' Sarek as well).

Pike & Picard (sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S I N G Dammit, Mr Picard! You're rubbing off on me! :giggle: ) are very similar. More thoughtful and introspective. A meeting of the two of them (ala Picard and Scotty in "Relics") would be interesting to explore. Greenwood's Pike is very close to Jeffrey Hunter's as well. So much so that I really see them as the same character.

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Well said to both of you. You guys make a lot of valid points and it's kind of cool to think of Pike as the Picard of the 23rd century in ways. Shame they never met.

BTW, I know you said you don't want anything to do with NuTrek, but Greenwood's performance as Pike is pretty good. Just sayin!

I wrote a ficlet about them meeting (in some kind of way, heh) and it was one of the most fascinating experiences for me as a writer because, well, their personalities match so well, I didn't even have to improvise because they just kept talking to one another. I, too, wish they had met in canon in some way, though. It would've been far more interesting than Jean-Luc meeting Kirk.

I could see Pike and Picard (both P-named; isn't that adorable? :P ) working together much better than Kirk and Picard.

And yes Founder, I agree; Bruce Greenwood's Pike is terrific (I also enjoyed Ben Cross' Sarek as well).

Pike & Picard (sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S I N G Dammit, Mr Picard! You're rubbing off on me! :giggle: ) are very similar. More thoughtful and introspective. A meeting of the two of them (ala Picard and Scotty in "Relics") would be interesting to explore. Greenwood's Pike is very close to Jeffrey Hunter's as well. So much so that I really see them as the same character.

I am not sorry at all for mentining that idea of them kissing to you, mon ami. :P

Now I wish more than ever that Jeffrey Hunter had lived long enough for something like this AND that Pike hadn't ended up in that beeping chair (although I'm sure they'd have found a way around THAT one somehow). Jean-Luc and Pike really would've liked each other a looooot. Still, Pike could've provided quite a bit of additional insight because he obviously comes from a time when there were more enemies than friends out there in space. I think he would've been fascinated by the Enterprise-D, although I can't quite see him agreeing with the whole "children on board" thing... but then, Jean-Luc doesn't agree with it either, so, they'd have yet another thing in common. Damn, this is perfect.

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AND that Pike hadn't ended up in that beeping chair (although I'm sure they'd have found a way around THAT one somehow).

Yes, that chair is one of the many anachronisms to grace TOS ST that is sadly antiquated today (like communicators that are twice the size of an average mobile phone today).

Even professor Stephen Hawking gets around in a much sweeter ride than poor Chris Pike had..... and he can TALK, too. :(

I am not sorry at all for mentining that idea of them kissing to you, mon ami. :P

Dirty boy... :laugh:

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