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Zef'No

What the TOS cast originally thought of TNG

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Well it's no secret that Shatner STILL doesn't think highly of TNG, I still keep encountering the rather persistent "fact" that he has never actually seen a TNG episode and also doesn't WANT to do so. I find Kelley's reaction hilarious, given the fact that he appeared in TNG's pilot episode, lol.

In a way, the TOS actors represent the reactions of the Trek fandom back then when a new series was announced, though. Some hated the idea, others were willing to give it a chance. It's actually quite... fascinating.

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Wow....it kind of does make them look...egoist for having that attitude, but I don't blame them because that was a different time. At that time, TNG really was a risk. The idea of Trek without Kirk and co. really seemed insane and pointless. Because at that time, Kirk and co. were Trek. So I can understand them.

But I am happy they turned out to be dead wrong...

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I can't blame the TOS folks who spoke out against TNG - hell, even the TNG actors, most notably Sir Patrick, didn't believe in the success of the show. He was told by EVERYONE in Hollywood AND elsewhere that there was no way that he would be able to replace the iconic captain Kirk and that TNG wouldn't last beyond the first season. That's why he signed that contract in the first place, he didn't expect it to last, he never would've committed himself to a TV series for that long, he had work to do in the theater in England... NO one believed in TNG's success, except for maybe Gene Roddenberry and his friends, lol.

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I can't blame the TOS folks who spoke out against TNG - hell, even the TNG actors, most notably Sir Patrick, didn't believe in the success of the show. He was told by EVERYONE in Hollywood AND elsewhere that there was no way that he would be able to replace the iconic captain Kirk and that TNG wouldn't last beyond the first season. That's why he signed that contract in the first place, he didn't expect it to last, he never would've committed himself to a TV series for that long, he had work to do in the theater in England... NO one believed in TNG's success, except for maybe Gene Roddenberry and his friends, lol.

And TNG's success was not readily apparent, either. The first two seasons were really hit and miss with the critics (and audiences, as I recall). And with quasi-remakes like "Naked Now" (remaking TOS' "Naked Time") or "Code of Honor" (a thinly veiled remake of "Amok Time"), TNG seemed to bear out the criticisms of some of the TOS cast.

And I don't blame Patrick Stewart for staying packed. Apparently, Marina Sirtis also lived out of her suitcases for awhile, too. ;)

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I also actually think it's kinda refreshing that some of the TOS folks were honest enough to voice their doubts. These days you only get "it is going to be SO great, oh, everyone will love it, I love it, too, come oooon, watch it, it is going to be greeaaaaaat" crap from most actors and actresses when a new thing is launched in a fandom. There are a few who voice their real thoughts but not many because, well, Hollywood just has this way of creating the illusion of harmony that often isn't there in the first place. (One of the many reasons why I mostly detest all this Hollywood fame and glory and OMG HAVE TO PRETEND THAT I LOVE EVERYONE attitude that so many actors and actresses have, or rather, have to have if they want to stay in that business.)

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I also actually think it's kinda refreshing that some of the TOS folks were honest enough to voice their doubts. These days you only get "it is going to be SO great, oh, everyone will love it, I love it, too, come oooon, watch it, it is going to be greeaaaaaat" crap from most actors and actresses when a new thing is launched in a fandom. There are a few who voice their real thoughts but not many because, well, Hollywood just has this way of creating the illusion of harmony that often isn't there in the first place. (One of the many reasons why I mostly detest all this Hollywood fame and glory and OMG HAVE TO PRETEND THAT I LOVE EVERYONE attitude that so many actors and actresses have, or rather, have to have if they want to stay in that business.)

Yes, the press junkets you see actors do for movies these days are largely the same; no matter the movie or TV show. Everyone pats each other on the back, they all say how what's-his-name is such a 'visionary' as a director (for directing the 7th movie in a franchise running on autopilot), and how going to work every day was such a joy, blah, blah, blah.... This is one of the reasons I largely avoid the 'big' panels in Hall H at Comic Con; you wait in line for 8 hours for a back-slapping shmooze-fest.

No thanks.

And yes, it is (was) refreshing to see Paramount employees (the TOS cast) being so blatantly honest about their misgivings regarding TNG. I remember (at the time) Nimoy's 'lightning in a bottle' comment was being re-quoted almost everywhere. And to be honest, some of that doubt seemed to have permeated the show in its early years. It was very 'coltish' those first two years; the storylines were clumsily executed and seemed to lack focus and confidence. TNG only began to really stand out from under TOS' shadow in it's third year when the show finally found its voice.

By the time "Best of Both Worlds" aired, it actually began to eclipse TOS in popularity...

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Now, now, let's not forget that there are SOOOOOOME folks who prefer the first two seasons over the entire rest of the show... ;)

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I like the first season of TNG very much.

It was quite reasonable to question the success of a TNG as TOS was not very successful in the beginning and only had a rather small - very enthusiastic but small - number of fans.

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Now, now, let's not forget that there are SOOOOOOME folks who prefer the first two seasons over the entire rest of the show... ;)

Hiding in thier dark corner, afraid to come out into the light. :P

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Now, now, let's not forget that there are SOOOOOOME folks who prefer the first two seasons over the entire rest of the show... ;)

I like the first season of TNG very much.

OK, that's two. Anyone else? Anybody....? :P

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Zef'No   
OK, that's two. Anyone else? Anybody....? :P

I don't dislike the first (or second) season. I'd rather watch that than a lot of Voyager episodes or any Enterprise.

Yes, TNG, like most of the Trek shows, took time to find its feet. But that process of discovery wasn't uninteresting - there are definitely some good episodes among the first season - Where No One Has Gone Before, Lonely Among Us, 11001001, Symbiosis and Conspiracy for example (better than a lot of later ones), and many of the others have some good moments in them if nothing else (The Arsenal of Freedom, Haven, Coming of Age, Heart of Glory, We'll Always Have Paris...)

I like the way the first season is very different to the rest of TNG, and the second season is very different again - they each have their own charm. Sure, the writing was a bit clunky in places and the special effects are outright primitive by today's standards. Like TOS, it certainly shows its age (feels very 80's in places), but that doesn't mean it can't still be appreciated.

With Voyager, you can swap almost any season 1 episode with any season 7 episode and barely notice anything different. Not so with TNG.

If I was seeing first season TNG for the first time now, I probably wouldn't have the patience to sit through it. But having lived in that time and grown up with it, I can relate to it on a weird level; even though it's so obviously set in the future, in a very real way it's like a quaint piece of history.

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OK, that's two. Anyone else? Anybody....? :P

I don't dislike the first (or second) season. I'd rather watch that than a lot of Voyager episodes or any Enterprise.

Yes, TNG, like most of the Trek shows, took time to find its feet. But that process of discovery wasn't uninteresting - there are definitely some good episodes among the first season - Where No One Has Gone Before, Lonely Among Us, 11001001, Symbiosis and Conspiracy for example (better than a lot of later ones), and many of the others have some good moments in them if nothing else (The Arsenal of Freedom, Haven, Coming of Age, Heart of Glory, We'll Always Have Paris...)

I like the way the first season is very different to the rest of TNG, and the second season is very different again - they each have their own charm. Sure, the writing was a bit clunky in places and the special effects are outright primitive by today's standards. Like TOS, it certainly shows its age (feels very 80's in places), but that doesn't mean it can't still be appreciated.

With Voyager, you can swap almost any season 1 episode with any season 7 episode and barely notice anything different. Not so with TNG.

If I was seeing first season TNG for the first time now, I probably wouldn't have the patience to sit through it. But having lived in that time and grown up with it, I can relate to it on a weird level; even though it's so obviously set in the future, in a very real way it's like a quaint piece of history.

Well said.

I was too little to watch TNG when it first aired, but I remember catching reruns as a kid and I found it excruciatingly boring. I was more of a Star Wars kid (but I did love sci-fi in general). It wasn't until DS9 that I got into Trek. Part of that reason was that it had aliens that looked alien. :P Now, while I'll concede that part of me disliking it was my own immaturity. I wanted to be blown away by aliens, space ships, alien planets, etc. So when my first exposure of TNG was them on a ship and talking all the time, I was like "........" But I didn't realize that the "talk" was philosophical subjects. Data's sentience, the prime directive, torture, etc. It wasn't until I was a teenager that I could appreciate those subjects and see how deep TNG sometimes was. But I am grateful that DS9 was my first actual Trek and not TNG. Otherwise, I'd probably would've been turned off from Trek for a long time.

You're right TNG had some gems in season 1 and 2 but....it's still nearly impossible for me to rewatch it. I've honestly made a concerted effort to try and marathon TNG and I couldn't do it. It's aged too much and some episodes are just....gah....

I do wonder if people felt the same way during its initial run. The TOS people probably felt so vindicated. It's a shame the TOS cast pretty much wanted Trek to end with them, though. I mean....they couldn't do it forever. But it seems like an eternal self-defeating attitude Trek suffers from. TOS cast and fandom (some at least) didn't think Trek could survive without them. The TNG (fandom) no doubt scoffed at the idea of a Trek (DS9/VOY) without an Enterprise leading it. And ENT suffered because people argued that Trek wasn't about looking back, but looking forward (whatever that means). And of course this all came full circle with Abrams' movie. "A TOS WITHOUT the original cast?!" :P

If Shatner never watched TNG, he probably doesn't even know DS9/VOY/ENT exists. :P :P :P

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I remember watching TNG seasons 1 and 2 in first run, and all the while I just kept hoping they'd get better.... :(

For every "Heart of Glory" "11001010" or "Conspiracy", it felt like there were three or four "Justices" or "Home Soils." I thought S2 was a little bit smoother overall; there were less clunkers. And I really loved "A Matter of Honor" "Measure of a Man" "Where Silence Has Lease" and many others. And (of course) I really liked Pulaski, too. It's too bad she couldn't stay on; I thought Diana Muldaur gave the show EXACTLY what it needed. :thumbup: A real shame they went back to the dancing Dr. Ditz in S3.... :thumbdown:

And yes, I'd rather watch "Code of Honor" multiple times (easily the WORST of all TNG IMO) rather than suffer through most (about 65% at least) of the incredibly boring rank-and-file numbness and sameness that was VGR. VGR had about a dozen or so episodes that I still like, but overall that one was just dull. At least the clumsy and awkward early seasons of TNG were experimental and different; VGR was a cozy, boring show running largely on autopilot....

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Now... I'm quite flattered by all this sudden semi-appreciation for the first two seasons... And yes I love my dark corner. :P

Honestly, I don't blame Shatner for never watching anything but TOS. I'd probably do the same if I were him. I mean I watch little DS9 and no VOY or ENT myself, so... I understand. Kinda. Heh.

I also wonder what it must've been like to see the first two seasons when they aired. I honestly don't know if I would love them as much as I love them these days if I had seen them back then when they aired (I have a hunch that I would've been one of those TOS fans who hated the idea of TNG). I started watching TNG in the middle of season 5. I only saw the first two seasons WAAAAAY after 5,6 and 7. At first I was confused by the uniforms but then I realized OMG IT IS EXTREMELY GRUMPY JEAN-LUC and from there I was just sold. And when Pulaski showed up in season 2 I knew I had found my favorite. It did take me a while to come to this conclusion, though.

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Now... I'm quite flattered by all this sudden semi-appreciation for the first two seasons... And yes I love my dark corner. :P

Honestly, I don't blame Shatner for never watching anything but TOS. I'd probably do the same if I were him. I mean I watch little DS9 and no VOY or ENT myself, so... I understand. Kinda. Heh.

I also wonder what it must've been like to see the first two seasons when they aired. I honestly don't know if I would love them as much as I love them these days if I had seen them back then when they aired (I have a hunch that I would've been one of those TOS fans who hated the idea of TNG). I started watching TNG in the middle of season 5. I only saw the first two seasons WAAAAAY after 5,6 and 7. At first I was confused by the uniforms but then I realized OMG IT IS EXTREMELY GRUMPY JEAN-LUC and from there I was just sold. And when Pulaski showed up in season 2 I knew I had found my favorite. It did take me a while to come to this conclusion, though.

I would say that S1 and 2 are an acquired taste.

At first, as a TOS fan, I hated them. But.... I couldn't quite turn away, either.

And yes, I STILL miss Pulaski.

I could only imagine her in the later seasons of the show. I mean, imagine how much BETTER the "Worf is paralyzed" episode ("Ethics") would've been with Pulaski going toe-to-toe with the new doctor onboard? Or in the movie GEN if Pulaski had also met Kirk? (Diana Muldaur costarred in two episodes of TOS, so it would've been a nice in-joke). It's sad, but after she left and Dr. Dummy beamed back aboard, I would watch later episodes and constantly think, "I'll bet Pulaski would've done that better..." :confused:

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Now... I'm quite flattered by all this sudden semi-appreciation for the first two seasons... And yes I love my dark corner. :P

Honestly, I don't blame Shatner for never watching anything but TOS. I'd probably do the same if I were him. I mean I watch little DS9 and no VOY or ENT myself, so... I understand. Kinda. Heh.

I also wonder what it must've been like to see the first two seasons when they aired. I honestly don't know if I would love them as much as I love them these days if I had seen them back then when they aired (I have a hunch that I would've been one of those TOS fans who hated the idea of TNG). I started watching TNG in the middle of season 5. I only saw the first two seasons WAAAAAY after 5,6 and 7. At first I was confused by the uniforms but then I realized OMG IT IS EXTREMELY GRUMPY JEAN-LUC and from there I was just sold. And when Pulaski showed up in season 2 I knew I had found my favorite. It did take me a while to come to this conclusion, though.

I would say that S1 and 2 are an acquired taste.

At first, as a TOS fan, I hated them. But.... I couldn't quite turn away, either.

And yes, I STILL miss Pulaski.

I could only imagine her in the later seasons of the show. I mean, imagine how much BETTER the "Worf is paralyzed" episode ("Ethics") would've been with Pulaski going toe-to-toe with the new doctor onboard? Or in the movie GEN if Pulaski had also met Kirk? (Diana Muldaur costarred in two episodes of TOS, so it would've been a nice in-joke). It's sad, but after she left and Dr. Dummy beamed back aboard, I would watch later episodes and constantly think, "I'll bet Pulaski would've done that better..." :confused:

Just IGNORE that Redhead of Doom. It's what I have resorted to. Worst thing one can do to a character is ignore that character completely and leave them out of EVERYTHING. Thinking about her gives her undeserved attention. ;) Skip episodes that have too much of her. That should help as well. Oh and, of course, watch a lot of season 2. Heh.

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Just IGNORE that Redhead of Doom. It's what I have resorted to. Worst thing one can do to a character is ignore that character completely and leave them out of EVERYTHING. Thinking about her gives her undeserved attention. ;) Skip episodes that have too much of her. That should help as well. Oh and, of course, watch a lot of season 2. Heh.

Thanks for the prescription, Dr. Picard.... :P

Actually, I tend to ignore the Crusher-heavy (or Crushed, as I call them) episodes anyway.... :laugh:

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Now... I'm quite flattered by all this sudden semi-appreciation for the first two seasons... And yes I love my dark corner. :P

Good, then stay there. ;) But in all honesty, There are few episodes from the first two season I can get into. It's not out of a lack of trying, I just can't stand most of them. Like the one where Tasha Yar has to battle a woman for the affections of the African King, the one where Wesley gets put on trail for walking where he isn't suppose to on a sexually active planet. Yeah, there are some pretty dumb episodes.

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Like the one where Tasha Yar has to battle a woman for the affections of the African King, the one where Wesley gets put on trail for walking where he isn't suppose to on a sexually active planet. Yeah, there are some pretty dumb episodes.

I didn't like those either - it was kind of stupid - but I quite like the character of Tasha Yar. I think it would have been interesting to see her develop further.

I think there were weak episodes in every season of TNG, but there were very good ones in the first season. For example I liked Encounter at Farpoint, Where no one has gone before, Lonely among us, Hide and Q, Heart of Glory, The Neutral Zone. I even liked The Naked Now if only because of Wesley taking control of the Enterprise.

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Zef'No   
There are few episodes from the first two season I can get into. It's not out of a lack of trying, I just can't stand most of them. Like the one where Tasha Yar has to battle a woman for the affections of the African King, the one where Wesley gets put on trail for walking where he isn't suppose to on a sexually active planet. Yeah, there are some pretty dumb episodes.

I agree about Code of Honor, definitely one of the worst ever episodes of any Trek series.

However, I actually don't mind Justice.

Am I alone in liking the "prime directive" episodes? Like The Masterpiece Society (which I have also defended on here), this one made me think. - Which certainly puts it into the "good TV" category IMO (I'd much rather give my brain some mental exercise rather than just revel in special effects and non-stop action).

Ok, I will admit that, on the surface, the premise is a little silly. And the "sex planet" idea was a trifle cringe-worthy in places (especially with the 80's hairstyles), but there's a great line at the end of the episode on which the dilemma is founded: "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute". Think about it.

That fascinated my teenaged mind, and I began to wonder where I stood on the matter in regards to morality.

How flexible can the justice system be? If you commit a crime, even if you ultimately do something good by it, are you still at fault? Can the ends justify the means - always or just sometimes, and who decides when and how?

If laws can be bent - or even broken - in one situation, won't everyone come along and demand the same kind of "special treatment"?

Is ignorance of the law an excuse? - Or is it your responsibility to find out such things before you go galavanting around an unfamiliar territory?

Is capital punishment justifiable if it means a crime rate of almost zero?

What is the price of utopia?

Ultimately, was Picard right to save Wesley, or was it right for him to respect the laws of the natives?

These are some of the questions I struggled with after watching the episode. Interesting stuff.... at least, I thought so.

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I'll never forget Michael Dorn and LeVar Burton ripping TNG's "Code of Honor" a new one at the Grand Slam Convention in February.

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My wife and I were just dying from laughter; especially when Michael Dorn does the stereotypical "African native"/Geoffrey Holder accent; "You weel haf NO vasssine, no Lt. Yar!" Dorn said he was lucky that he wasn't in the episode, but he saw it later when a friend came over for dinner one night and he was deeply embarrassed. Burton called it, "The Planet of the Black People."

So help me, Dorn sounded just like Geoffrey Holder (here's a video of Holder; he was really popular in the early '70s):

I have to say, "Code Of Honor" is my LEAST favorite TNG of them all; and it's some pretty foul-smelling company, but it is still firmly attached to the bottom of the heap because of it's incredible racism! As Dorn pointed out, they have transporters, but the men still carry spears! And it really had no POINT. There was no sci fi problem to solve, and we didn't really learn a whole lot about our characters either (Lt. Yar is the focus of the episode, yet all COH tells us is that she fights really well... wow; revelatory). Seriously, this episode is a true waste of time; it only serves to offend and maintain a 1940s Hollywood stereotype of the 'noble savage'....

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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While I do agree that "Code of Honor" is one of the worst TNG episodes, I still make it a personal habit of mine to try and defend seasons 1 and 2 whenever I can, heh.

*gets on soapbox* (No, I am NOT going to stay in my dark corner.)

I really would like to know what those who dislike the first season so much (season 2 gets a lot of hate as well but not as much as season 1) EXPECTED from the show, given its background at the time. It WAS the best they could do (well okay, not "Code of Honor", that was the WORST) because NO one truly believed in it. The TOS actors didn't, well, most of them, anyway. The TNG actors didn't. The majority of the fans didn't.

The characters themselves were a problem as well - no one knew them yet and the writers struggled with giving them personality traits that would fit (any fan fiction writer knows how hard it is to flesh out a character during your first attempt). The actors themselves just stumbled around and had no idea what the hell they were doing either because they didn't know their characters either yet. The fans were rioting because HOW DARE THEY TRY TO REPLACE KIRK. The media expected an immediate success or an immediate failure. The whole setting was new, it was a new century, a new ship, an entirely new crew. In short, the pressure was immense.

It's always TNG that gets the most hate for its first two seasons despite the fact that DS9's first two seasons REALLY weren't very shiny either, according to its fans - what people ALWAYS overlook is that TNG had the most difficult challenge of all the TOS successor series. It was the first series after the iconic TOS. It had a very difficult time because no one REALLY wanted to give it a chance, no one believed it would be capable of replacing TOS (never mind that it was not SUPPOSED to do that, it was supposed to CONTINUE it). DS9 had TNG to build on, and VOY had both TNG and DS9. TNG had NOTHING except for some basic rules that TOS had established (such as the broad setting, the Federation and a starship). It made the biggest jump in time of all the Trek series minus ENT, maybe (meh, let's ignore ENT, lol) and it took QUITE a beating from practically everyone. Add to that a writers' strike in the second season. It's easy to hate the first two seasons just because everyone else does, but I honestly think one also has to look at the background here in order to understand why the episodes were the way they were. The folks who worked on Early TNG mostly came from TOS, so, they made VERY TOS-like episodes with un-TOS-like characters, which created quite a bit of ridiculousness. Also, Gene Roddenberry had the show in his grasp, which, admittedly, wasn't always the best thing at all times, what with him re-writing entire scripts and angering the writers by doing that. I do like his influence on the show all in all, but sometimes it just went too far. I keep saying that, with Early TNG, one must NOT take it TOO seriously. Just chuckle at it and facepalm from time to time and you're good to go. If you try to make sense out of most of season 1's scripts, you'll end up banging your head against the wall. Or, if you want, take Zef'No's approach - try to look BEYOND that which the episodes show (this works especially well with season 2). Try to focus on the deeper meaning and the questions that are raised. I really like Zef's "Justice" example - instead of focusing on the ridiculousness of that Edo swinger club setting and the outfits and the Edo always running and yadda yadda yadda, he ponders the deeper meaning and the questions the episode tried to raise.

And yet... despite all the flaws that people find in the first two TNG seasons, the show did show its potential SOMEHOW. I mean SOME folks must have noticed it, otherwise the show wouldn't have caught on and it would simply have been cancelled. Not ALL could have been bad about the first two seasons. They ARE different from the rest of the show, especially season 1, but I honestly don't think this is a bad thing per se.

*gets off soapbox*

Since people often ask me about this... I actually firmly believe that season 7 is the worst TNG season. All it does most of the time is introduce family members we had never seen before, turn TNG into nothing more than The Picard And Data Show and/or show us how too much surrealism can just make you go WTF. I would watch season 1 over season 7 any day because season 7 really bores me to TEARS most of the time and season 1 at least has a LOT of unintentionally hilarious moments.

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Whew! For a moment there I was worried that you were going to defend "Code of Honor." :laugh:

As for S1? As I said in another post, there were plenty of gems in there, but for me the ratio of gems to limestone seemed disproportionate.

Totally agree that season 7 sucks the air out of the room, that's for sure. I absolutely LOATHE this season.

The 'family' episodes, and the 2 part "space pirates" episodes are among my least favorites...

In fact, I'd agree that is one of the worst seasons, definitely. Although "All Good Things..." ends the show on a wonderful high note, IMO.

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Whew! For a moment there I was worried that you were going to defend "Code of Honor." :laugh:

As for S1? As I said in another post, there were plenty of gems in there, but for me the ratio of gems to limestone seemed disproportionate.

Totally agree that season 7 sucks the air out of the room, that's for sure. I absolutely LOATHE this season.

The 'family' episodes, and the 2 part "space pirates" episodes are among my least favorites...

In fact, I'd agree that is one of the worst seasons, definitely. Although "All Good Things..." ends the show on a wonderful high note, IMO.

Don't worry, not even I can come up with a defense for "Code Of Honor". I do generally mention the few adorable Jean-Luc character moments it has, but that's all. Like I said, not even I can defend THAT plot and the unforgivable racism that is involved.

LOL ironically, I DO like season 7's "Gambit" (both parts, it's one of THE Picard/Riker episodes, actually)... one of the few season 7 episodes that I like. And I DON'T like "All Good Things..." LOL. But at least we agree that season 7 mostly sucks - that's a start if you ask me. :laugh:

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