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JayTheTrekkie

Children of Time

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Actually, an alternate reality is not proof of anything.  If I travel in time, and change history, I have made an alternate reality.  That does not mean the original reality still exists.

Conversely, it doesn't disprove its existence either.  The Shrodinger's Cat problem, all over again...  

The fact that you're there in that alternate reality/timeline/universe (same difference) and didn't negate your very existence (ala prime Spock) implies that it might be intact. 

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Conversely, it doesn't disprove its existence either.  The Shrodinger's Cat problem, all over again...  

You're right.  However, for me, I feel that you have to follow canon and when there are established rules, it's my belief that you have to follow them unless they are disproven.

In the Abrams case, I can only go with the facts as given, and Abrams purposefully chose this path on screen.

As given, in every episode where our characters traveled between universes, it was crystal clear that's what happened.

Pick an episode where this phenomenon happened. 

Is there one episode where it wasn't crystal clear that our characters were in a different universe?

Therefore for me, if we are to presume that we are dealing with a different universe, then there has to be a line making it crystal clear.

The Uhura line in ST09 does not do that, which forces me to presume that it is the SAME universe and we are only dealing with time travel, not universe changes.

I believe that this can be easily remedied if a plot point calls for it in a future movie, and I wish that would happen, but until it does, I can't accept it as is.

The fact that you're there in that alternate reality/timeline/universe (same difference) and didn't negate your very existence (ala prime Spock) implies that it might be intact. 

Keyword is MIGHT.  However, there is precedent that the time traveler is not affected by timeline changes.  Happened with O'Brien, Kirk and crew in City, and of course the entire crew in FC.

I totally acknowledge that yes, it is absolutely possible for the prime universe to be in tact, but they didn't go far enough in canon to make it irrefutable, which I think was a mistake, but one that CAN be corrected should they choose.

 

 

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The Uhura line in ST09 does not do that, which forces me to presume that it is the SAME universe and we are only dealing with time travel, not universe changes.

Whether you accept it or not is your concern, but that IS the onscreen explanation for the altered reality of ST09.   It's onscreen, it's in dialogue; it's as 'canon' as it gets...

If it were the same universe, then Spock Prime could no longer exist, due to our universe's nasty little habit of of cause preceding effect.   

Take "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" or even "Assignment Earth"; in both episodes we (the audience) KNOW the timelines will be successfully preserved because our characters are still alive within them; if they failed?  They wouldn't (or rather couldn't) be there.   Hence, we know they'll fix things; the trick is how.

Of course, there are anomalies like the "Guardian of Forever" or the Defiant's "chroniton particles" of DS9's "Past Tense", but those were unusual methods of time travel for the ST universe and didn't necessarily obey our universe's law of cause preceding effect.  In those instances, there is some kind of magic 'bubble' (like the chroniton wake of "First Contact") that effectively 'shields' our heroes from timeline changes; Spock Prime, alive in the alternate timeline, experienced no such 'shield' within the black hole device.   Thus, if he undid his direct timeline?  Not only would his memory change, but he might not even exist (if New Spock somehow dies at an earlier date...).

 

PS: If you want canon?  Here's Memory Alpha's take (as canonical as it gets) on the Alternate reality: http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_reality

The alternate reality runs parallel to the prime reality as a new quantum reality. The prime reality is where many of the events seen in the Star Trek universe have occurred and, according to Star Trek writers Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci, their film allows the prime reality to continue. [2]

This intent is also evident in the script of Star Trek[3] While not completely audible in the film, before being teased by his classmates, young Spock is asked by the computer in the learning center on Vulcan: "What is the central assumption of Quantum Cosmology?" To which Spock replies: "Everything that can happen does happen in equal and parallel universes.

As the alternate reality is merely divergent rather than a completely new universe, this means backstory elements pertaining to anything before 2233 hold true for both timelines. Director J.J. Abrams said here that "It's actually nice when you're given a box.... when you're given parameters that you have to honor because it gives you limits and then you know that within those boundaries you can be creatively risky."

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Whether you accept it or not is your concern, but that IS the onscreen explanation for the altered reality of ST09.   It's onscreen, it's in dialogue; it's as 'canon' as it gets...

But that's the thing--it isn't on screen.  That's the entire problem.  There is NOTHING in the dialogue that says it's an alternate universe and that the original one exists.  Uhura's line says nothing of the sort, and that was done on purpose.

 

If it were the same universe, then Spock Prime could no longer exist, due to our universe's nasty little habit of of cause preceding effect.   

That varies depending on the story which means that the time travel method matters.  But given FC and City on the Edge, it is possible to survive a timeline change in your universe.

Spock Prime, alive in the alternate timeline, experienced no such 'shield' within the black hole device.   Thus, if he undid his direct timeline?  Not only would his memory change, but he might not even exist (if New Spock somehow dies at an earlier date...).

How do we know that for certain?  It's very possible that the red matter did just that, and in fact likely, since there IS precedent in Star Trek for that. 

 

Nothing in that memory alpha quote helps.  That part about everything being possible in multiple universes only confirms the events of Parallels, and that is consistent with multiple universes.  Time travel is another animal.

Interviews with writers mean nothing because onscreen trumps interviews after the fact.  If Abrams wanted it clear, he could have made it clear in the movie. 

By the way, since you're participating, is it ok that we are talking about time travel in general in this thread?  It's related to Children of Time, but not direct, and I want to make sure it's cool.  I think this is one of the better Star Trek related topics, but it can go off on a lot of tangents. 

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OK, we're both in danger of sidetracking this thread (again) regarding your non-belief in alternate reality of ST09; it exists.   It's in dialogue; it's in Memory Alpha.  And it's onscreen.  If the prime universe ceased to exist?  Spock Prime would undo himself.  

 

At any rate, If we're to continue this?  Let's take it to the ST09 section, because this is getting way out of "Children of Time" territory...

 

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No problem.  That's why I asked.  Of course, based on another theory I have, which we also talked about before, it's in my best interest for the Abrams theory to work, even if they will never go there in a movie.   If I bring that up now, it will REALLY get off topic.

Edited by StillKirok

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Does anyone KIND OF wish that Odo had SLOWLY begun to transform to the more Rene-looking Odo in the show? Maybe it is REALLY subtle but by the latter half of season 7 - he looks this way - - -

childrenoftime092.jpg

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Yes, it would have shown evolution for his character for him to learn how to better mimic the humanoid form over the seasons. Other Changelings with very little prior exposure to humanoids are able to mimic the human form perfectly, yet the female founder that runs Dominion military affairs and has plenty of exposure to solids looks like a female Odo. It didn't make a lot of sense to me that Odo would struggle with human form, yet is indistinguishable from many inanimate objects.

Edited by Hammer

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I wonder if it was just because of the complexity of creating such specific makeup appliance pics on a weekly basis (esp. on a makeup-heavy show like DS9), or was it just forgotten along the way?  I agree that it would've been interesting if, after S5 (when Odo got his shapeshifter ability back) we saw a gradual progression to the look he had in CoT.

Michael Westmore is a tremendously talented guy; he's had misfires (the horrific old age makeups in "Too Short a Season", for example) but overall he and his team have done some amazing (Emmy winning) work.  Especially given the tremendous workload of doing two shows at once for years at a time (TNG/DS9, DS9/VGR).   So while I would've liked to have seen a more gradually detailed Odo?  I understand if it would've been the straw that broke the makeup department's back.

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