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This episode is a total piece of s#!t.

Sorry, I really don't mean to troll, but "Sub Rosa" is just utter, sub-Harlequin romance garbage. Makes the "Twilight" franchise look like "A Midsummer Night's Dream." Dr. Crusher wanting to leave Starfleet because she's getting it on with her grandma's ghost lover is about the lowest TNG could go (not counting most first season episodes, of course). And the planet of cliched Scotsmen all sound like bad James Doohan imitators, "Ye dinna gooo in that hooose, and ye dinna light thahhht can-dle..."

That twinkling star you see in the night sky tonight is Jimmy Doohan's ashes rolling over in orbit..... :laugh:

This could very well be the ST-TNG answer to TOS' "Spock's Brain."

I would give it a one out of 10, but that would imply it had some value somewhere, and that'd be misleading. A zero from me. At least "Spock's Brain" was campy and funny... this one is just dull, boring and it features Dr. Crusher at her airheaded, straw-brained worst. Ignoring most of the generally horrible first season (which I attribute to writer conflicts and the show still finding itself), I would say this one, "Masks", "Night Terrors" and one or two more of season 7 rank as the WORST of TNG.

But "Sub Rosa" just makes me want to do THIS:

vomit.gif

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Ignoring most of the generally horrible first season (which I attribute to writer conflicts and the show still finding itself), I would say this one, "Masks", "Night Terrors" and one or two more of season 7 rank as the WORST of TNG.

LOL! As soon as you said "Masks" my mind jumped to "Masaka is awakening!" :laugh: I think Brent Spinner saved that episode, where you get to see his acting in force.

But, as for "Sub Rosa", Crusher's ghost sex scene almost always takes me off guard that she's having an orgasm after masturbation. I mean, she is...wow. :loopy: I can't even think of the right words to describe her.

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Ignoring most of the generally horrible first season (which I attribute to writer conflicts and the show still finding itself), I would say this one, "Masks", "Night Terrors" and one or two more of season 7 rank as the WORST of TNG.

LOL! As soon as you said "Masks" my mind jumped to "Masaka is awakening!" :laugh: I think Brent Spinner saved that episode, where you get to see his acting in force.

But, as for "Sub Rosa", Crusher's ghost sex scene almost always takes me off guard that she's having an orgasm after masturbation. I mean, she is...wow. :loopy: I can't even think of the right words to describe her.

If that scene had ANY genuine eroticism to it, it might've been OK, but it was played so badly that it just evokes laughs. I'm sorry (to any Crusher fans) but a Gates McFadden fan I am NOT.

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If that scene had ANY genuine eroticism to it, it might've been OK, but it was played so badly that it just evokes laughs. I'm sorry (to any Crusher fans) but a Gates McFadden fan I am NOT.

Same here. Crusher and Picard was always mooning over each other and when they finally admit their feelings during the episode with the neural link, Picard is ready to finally let that aspect come out. But she raises her hand and goes, "Oh no, you didn't." Crusher had no real strength in my mind as a character.

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If that scene had ANY genuine eroticism to it, it might've been OK, but it was played so badly that it just evokes laughs. I'm sorry (to any Crusher fans) but a Gates McFadden fan I am NOT.

Same here. Crusher and Picard was always mooning over each other and when they finally admit their feelings during the episode with the neural link, Picard is ready to finally let that aspect come out. But she raises her hand and goes, "Oh no, you didn't." Crusher had no real strength in my mind as a character.

And why COULDN'T they have had a romance, anyway? Because they served on the same ship? Didn't stop Riker and Troi, or Dax and Worf, or Troi and Worf (she gets around, doesn't she? Hee hee). The Jack problem was dead & buried (literally and figuratively :laugh: ); Wesley was a man and he liked Picard (no reason why he wouldn't have 'approved'). What was the problem anyway?

I'll tell you; it's because (IMO) the TNG writers couldn't write authentic romance worth a living damn, really. They were great on the scifi/ST stuff, but when it came to real, human romance? They wrote it like 14 year old boys who only understood women in the abstract. It was middle-school dialogue coupled with awkward staging; with older characters who didn't seem to be able to articulate genuine warmth or passion (one of my biggest problems with the TNG crew; they too often came across as genial office co-workers and not the easy buddy-relationships of TOS and DS9).

"Sub Rosa" felt like the TNG writers were trying to write a gothic romance by spending the previous night cramming for it with a stack of cheap, dime store romance novels...

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I always skip this episode, and any episode with Troi's mother in it.

What?! How can you hate Lwaxana? She's a fun character! :whack:

I found her 'cougar on overdrive' routine to be cringe-worthy. Picard didn't want anything to do with her, to the point that he was so uncomfortable that he actively avoided being in her presence while she was onboard. Riker? Yeah, not a chance, and she knew Troi had dibs. Any episode that she is in is meant to be a comedy, but I found her eyeroll worthy, not funny. The exception was that one episode where she was suppressing the death of her child, but by that point it was hard to take her character that seriously. Her whole 'holder of the sacred chalice' bit got old too, although I did enjoy Troi pointing out that it was just a moldy old pot. I still have a hard time believing that the computer's voice was actually her.

LOL! As soon as you said "Masks" my mind jumped to "Masaka is awakening!" :laugh: I think Brent Spinner saved that episode, where you get to see his acting in force.

Data salvaged that episode and made it borderline watchable. The transformation of the ship was just too much of a whopper to believe.

And why COULDN'T they have had a romance, anyway? Because they served on the same ship? Didn't stop Riker and Troi, or Dax and Worf, or Troi and Worf (she gets around, doesn't she? Hee hee). The Jack problem was dead & buried (literally and figuratively :laugh: ); Wesley was a man and he liked Picard (no reason why he wouldn't have 'approved'). What was the problem anyway?

Picard didn't like to fraternize with his crew. It happened in one episode, and it got to the point that he was afraid to send her on away missions. Wesley's approval? I always believed Picard was his real father anyway, based on stuff we saw in Season 1. That Jack stuff was drek, the writers just didn't want to go all the way with an adultery plot-line.

Same here. Crusher and Picard was always mooning over each other and when they finally admit their feelings during the episode with the neural link, Picard is ready to finally let that aspect come out. But she raises her hand and goes, "Oh no, you didn't." Crusher had no real strength in my mind as a character.

I wish we got to hear what they were thinking in that episode...

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I wish we got to hear what they were thinking in that episode...

Probably would've been "Oh Beverly, I've always loved you, blah, blah, blah...." :P

The TNG writers could never do proper adult-level romance; it seemed THAT was truly their final frontier.... :laugh:

I always believed Picard was his real father anyway, based on stuff we saw in Season 1. That Jack stuff was drek, the writers just didn't want to go all the way with an adultery plot-line.

That would've been WAAAAYY too "Luke, I am your father" for me.... :cylonnono:

I sincerely doubt that was the intention.

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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I wish we got to hear what they were thinking in that episode...

Probably would've been "Oh Beverly, I've always loved you, blah, blah, blah...." :P

The TNG writers could never do proper adult-level romance; it seemed THAT was truly their final frontier.... :laugh:

I always believed Picard was his real father anyway, based on stuff we saw in Season 1. That Jack stuff was drek, the writers just didn't want to go all the way with an adultery plot-line.

That would've been WAAAAYY too "Luke, I am your father" for me.... :cylonnono:

I sincerely doubt that was the intention.

Do you really think that Gene's first season TNG would have had any problems ripping off a highly successful Star Wars? He certainly had no problem recycling TOS episodes and writing style. It wouldn't be a complete ripoff anyway, Picard didn't turn evil, and Anakin's children were conceived in wedlock. There were a few times that Beverly seemed like she was going to drop a bomb-shell only to get cut off by Picard. The first time Wesley was allowed on the bridge seemed to be the heaviest hint towards that, what else could the tension between the two have been about? Why would he suddenly change his mind and allow him on the bridge?

My theory, she had an affair with Picard, gets pregnant and tells Jack that Wesley is his. She tells Wesley that Jack was his father. Jack dies, and Beverly doesn't have the heart to tell Wesley. It never gets revealed because she was the head doctor most of the series, and Pulaski would have been a stickler for patient confidentiality. Wesley never has a medical crisis that necessitates that info getting out. IMO, Wesley obviously inherited his smarts from his father's side (Picard), since he wasn't getting his genius genes from Beverly.

Edited by Hammer

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My theory, she had an affair with Picard, gets pregnant and tells Jack that Wesley is his. She tells Wesley that Jack was his father. Jack dies, and Beverly doesn't have the heart to tell Wesley. It never gets revealed because she was the head doctor most of the series, and Pulaski would have been a stickler for patient confidentiality. Wesley never has a medical crisis that necessitates that info getting out. IMO, Wesley obviously inherited his smarts from his father's side (Picard), since he wasn't getting his genius genes from Beverly.

I don't know. I personally don't think Picard ever had an affair with Crusher, it seems kind of obvious to me with the mind-link episode that Crusher was surprised Picard had feelings for her. And considering Picard did have at least one it seems flagrant affair (with Vash) in the series, and we know that he had a pretty heated one with Luke's father. The one Damon Bak tries to kill. That alone suggests they never had any and that Roddenberry didn't seem too opposed to the idea of adulterous relations.

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I wish we got to hear what they were thinking in that episode...

Probably would've been "Oh Beverly, I've always loved you, blah, blah, blah...." :P

The TNG writers could never do proper adult-level romance; it seemed THAT was truly their final frontier.... :laugh:

I always believed Picard was his real father anyway, based on stuff we saw in Season 1. That Jack stuff was drek, the writers just didn't want to go all the way with an adultery plot-line.

That would've been WAAAAYY too "Luke, I am your father" for me.... :cylonnono:

I sincerely doubt that was the intention.

Do you really think that Gene's first season TNG would have had any problems ripping off a highly successful Star Wars? He certainly had no problem recycling TOS episodes and writing style. It wouldn't be a complete ripoff anyway, Picard didn't turn evil, and Anakin's children were conceived in wedlock. There were a few times that Beverly seemed like she was going to drop a bomb-shell only to get cut off by Picard. The first time Wesley was allowed on the bridge seemed to be the heaviest hint towards that, what else could the tension between the two have been about? Why would he suddenly change his mind and allow him on the bridge?

My theory, she had an affair with Picard, gets pregnant and tells Jack that Wesley is his. She tells Wesley that Jack was his father. Jack dies, and Beverly doesn't have the heart to tell Wesley. It never gets revealed because she was the head doctor most of the series, and Pulaski would have been a stickler for patient confidentiality. Wesley never has a medical crisis that necessitates that info getting out. IMO, Wesley obviously inherited his smarts from his father's side (Picard), since he wasn't getting his genius genes from Beverly.

No, that doesn't fit because Picard was tense not just from seeing Beverly (whom he has survivor guilt feelings over because of Jack) but also from the fact that he's not comfortable with children (he makes a point of it repeatedly in season one; he even tells Riker so in "Encounter @ Farpoint"). That pretty much says it all. I just watched "E at F" a few weeks ago (on bluray) and there is really no further subtext to that scene.

And when Beverly found out that Picard secretly loved her (in season 7's dreadful "Attached") it seemed to genuinely surprise her; how could that be a surprise if she already bore him a child? You'd think she'd feel something more from Picard long before then. And "Attached" also made it clear that he NEVER acted on his feelings for Beverly. So, that theory just doesn't fit.

And who's to say Jack didn't have any geniuses in his line? I'd say Picard is wise and intelligent, but not necessarily a genius...

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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I don't think that Picard knew Wesley at all, or at least didn't suspect he was his father until Bev mentioned how long it had been, and he trailed off. Picard is uncomfortable around kids, but he takes Wesley under his wing based on survivor's guilt alone? I think he was pretty good at suppressing those feelings, he doesn't really even address them until Q points it out to him in Tapestry.

I think that in season one they were going to go with that plotline, but with Bev being cut from season two and probably falling out of favour well before that, they never developed it. By season 3, Wesley wasn't exactly a popular character so another Wesley story wouldn't have been helpful. Bev could have still been surprised by Picard's feelings, a one-night stand years ago doesn't necessarily mean she could assume that he would have lingering feelings. They had several opportunities to do a reveal for that, and every time that it seems like she was going to say something, she gets cut off, almost like it was a running in-joke with the producers. The Arsenal of Freedom, when Picard and B Crusher were stuck in that cave, was one such instance that comes to mind.

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I don't think that Picard knew Wesley at all, or at least didn't suspect he was his father until Bev mentioned how long it had been, and he trailed off. Picard is uncomfortable around kids, but he takes Wesley under his wing based on survivor's guilt alone? I think he was pretty good at suppressing those feelings, he doesn't really even address them until Q points it out to him in Tapestry.

No, he took Wesley under his wing not just because he was the son of his dead friend, but also because the Traveler in "Where No One Has Gone Before" very strongly advised him to do so.

I think that in season one they were going to go with that plotline, but with Bev being cut from season two and probably falling out of favour well before that, they never developed it. By season 3, Wesley wasn't exactly a popular character so another Wesley story wouldn't have been helpful. Bev could have still been surprised by Picard's feelings, a one-night stand years ago doesn't necessarily mean she could assume that he would have lingering feelings. They had several opportunities to do a reveal for that, and every time that it seems like she was going to say something, she gets cut off, almost like it was a running in-joke with the producers. The Arsenal of Freedom, when Picard and B Crusher were stuck in that cave, was one such instance that comes to mind.

I think a 'running joke' was more like it.

Sounds like it was just a red herring; I assumed she was just going to tell him something like 'Even though I loved Jack, I always kind of had feelings for you too, blah, blah, blah, or some 'Twilight'-ish bulls**t like that. :laugh:

But as to the subject of Wesley's parentage? I don't think there is any question that Jack Crusher is the dad. Look at the 4th season episode, "Family"; they even cast an actor who looked vaguely like Wes to play his younger dad (on the holodeck). Seeing the two of them side by side, you realize Wesley is the perfect blend of the younger Jack Crusher actor and McFadden. If Picard had ANY paternal feelings toward Wesley, it was just survivor's guilt that eventually transmuted into genuine respect and admiration for Wes and his abilities. That doesn't mean he's Wesley's closet pop.

I honestly don't think (nor do I see any substantial indications) that they were ever planning an "I am your father" moment for Picard and Wesley. If there were ANY implication it was most likely a harmless red herring, nothing more.

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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I don't think that Picard knew Wesley at all, or at least didn't suspect he was his father until Bev mentioned how long it had been, and he trailed off. Picard is uncomfortable around kids, but he takes Wesley under his wing based on survivor's guilt alone? I think he was pretty good at suppressing those feelings, he doesn't really even address them until Q points it out to him in Tapestry.

I think that in season one they were going to go with that plotline, but with Bev being cut from season two and probably falling out of favour well before that, they never developed it. By season 3, Wesley wasn't exactly a popular character so another Wesley story wouldn't have been helpful. Bev could have still been surprised by Picard's feelings, a one-night stand years ago doesn't necessarily mean she could assume that he would have lingering feelings. They had several opportunities to do a reveal for that, and every time that it seems like she was going to say something, she gets cut off, almost like it was a running in-joke with the producers. The Arsenal of Freedom, when Picard and B Crusher were stuck in that cave, was one such instance that comes to mind.

I'm still on the side of Picard not being the father. It's a ridiculous notion. I want to say that Picard even introduced the two, but if that was the case, it was probably Picard knew Beverly and didn't have feelings until after she started dating Jack. He even says in "Attached" that he only believed it to be an infatuation and it wasn't until after Jack died before he realized he really did love her.

SUre, that hasn't stopped anyone before. But, then you have to question the man Jean-Luc was at the time. Was he still to rambucuos Lt. right out of the Academy, or was he starting to get serious like he did after being stabbed in the heart. If he was his womanizing younger-self, then perhaps. But, considering Wesley was only like 12 or so when he got onto the Enterprise, I don't see it. Indeed, Picard had very much matured it appears by the time he was on the Stargazer, which was around the same time.

The idea borders on a conversation I once had on an LOTR forum about Saruman. In the book when Gandalf and company go to ruined Isengard, the book talks about that one of the times Saruman's patience slips, he seems like a coiled serpent. The kid was totally convinced he did become a massive snake. In the end, it all came back to he was taking it too literally and reading too much into it. I think the only way one could get Picard as Beverly's sugar mommy is by reading too much of it.

Edited by Admiral Harmon

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Beverly has sex with a ghost on the Planet of the James Doohan impersonators.

No, just... NO.

This one is an absolute zero.

It reads like a s#!tty, third-rate, wannabe Gothic romance novel and it makes Crusher look even dumber than she already does.

It's not even bad enough to be camp or funny (ala "Spock's Brain").

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Basically it seemed like a huge Crusher masturbation episode. All the sexual things in there just reminded me of it.

Alas so.

Not the worst episode ever. Just...Christ, where's the emoticon of falling flat on the face into a pool of blood!?

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Basically it seemed like a huge Crusher masturbation episode. All the sexual things in there just reminded me of it.

hahaha and the worst part is that she even quits her job because of this! That's the craziest thing ever!

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Watched it today and although I have to admit, in my memory, the episode was worse, it was still a forgettable episode, boring.

I also saw an error while watching it today, fairly early in the episode Beverley asks Troi to walk to her nana's house, which she agrees to do.

Next scene, Picard and the governor are walking on the church grounds and in the back you see Troi walking, at least a woman in a blue Trek uniform with lots of black hair! :-)

I don't look for errors but this one was fairly obvious I could not miss.

4/10

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0

Twilight is a masterpiece by comparison.

Not to mention it is a Crushturbation episode.

smgew.gif

I hate this episode more than is legally possible.

Aside from the obvious Crusher-ghostgasm nonsense, the cliche-laden planet of the 'Gothic Romance Novel Scotsmen' is just too insanely stupid to take seriously.

"Dinna gooo in that hooose, and dinna light that candle..."

Jeezus Jumping Jehoshaphat.

Makes James Doohan's accent look a whole lot better, doesn't it?

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What is up with Trek depicting all these cultures being caricatures? The African stereotype colony? The Irish stereotype colony? The Native colony? This Scottish one?

TNG was awful with this.

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