Voyager

Is There in Truth No Beauty

Favorite Overall Trek Series/Movie  

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  1. 1. What is your overall favorite Star Trek series?

    • Star Trek: Enterprise
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  2. 2. What is your overall favorite Star Trek movie?

    • Star Trek - I: The Motion Picture
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    • Star Trek - VII: Generations
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    • Star Trek - VIII: First Contact
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    • Star Trek - IX: Insurrection
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    • Star Trek - X: Nemesis
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Is There In Truth No Beauty?

TOS Season 3, Episode 5

WRITTEN BY

Jean Lissette Aroeste

DIRECTED BY

Ralph Senensky

First Aired Oct 18, 1968

Stardate 5630.7

The Enterprise picks up Kollos, an ambassador from the Medusan race -- a species so ugly as to cause insanity to those who look at them, along with specialist Laurence Marvick and telepath Dr. Miranda Jones. When Marvick attempts to kill Kollos, he goes mad and steers the Enterprise into an unexplored region.

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I love Miranda Jones, such a shame she wasn't in a better episode.

What is it with Kirk that he can't understand that not all women want a romantic relationship?

It gets a five because of Miranda and the slanted camera angles.

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I. Love. This. Episode. And. Miranda. Jones. :thumbsup2: :thumbsup2: :thumbsup2: :thumbsup2: It's my favorite TOS episode - it definitely gets a 9 from me! :)

I just love how Miranda is annoyed because of all the stupid dudes around her who demand of her to behave stereotypically. lol.

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A very good ep. That sensor dress pre-dates LaForge's visor by decades!

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Very good episode! I much prefer Diana Muldaur in TOS rather than as Pulaski...

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That was Pulaski!?

I loved this episode as well and loved how Miranda wasn't the stereotypical female. I give it an 8

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Possibly because of my technical issues distracting me during the viewing I wasn't overly keen on the episode. Miranda Jones is neither here nor there and even Kirk annoys me in this episode. Seems like he was out at the start just to go out with MJ but then I guess that's Kirk isn't it. The remastered effects are sparse but do their best to add to the show. Perhaps a shame we never had more Muldaur in TOS. Rather this than TNG personally.

6

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This episode is hideously bad. (I just wrote a non intended pun, that's getting left in there). In all seriousness, this is just really stupid. I don't like it, and it gets a 2.

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I just re-watched this episode for the first time in a long while, and I have a question about the plot.

During the scene in Engineering when Larry dies, towards the end of that scene, Miranda says that she's trying to help Larry telepathically, Larry shrieks, "Don't love her! She'll kill you if you love her," then drops dead.

WAS Miranda trying to help Larry telepathically? Or did she kill him? I think it could actually be read either way, so I'm wondering what other people thought when they saw it.

One of the things I love about Miranda's character is that she's so morally gray* -- she's not a definite hero, nor is she a definite villain. She's someone who could leave the ship stuck in space because she's unwilling to share Kollos, which makes her pretty bad. But given that she's a professional woman in a 1960's environment, a telepath who's all too familiar with how evil other people are (from the things that most of us hide in our minds but which she's privvy to), and a blind person who's had to insist upon her competence all of her life, I'm sympathetic to her being terribly protective of what she has.

WAS Miranda honestly trying to help Larry, or did she contribute to his death? I think we don't know.

* I like it when our HEROES are definitely good guys, but I prefer antagonists who aren't cackling evil stereotypes but rather people who do the wrong thing from understandable motives.

Edited by Corylea

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I just re-watched this episode for the first time in a long while, and I have a question about the plot.

During the scene in Engineering when Larry dies, towards the end of that scene, Miranda says that she's trying to help Larry telepathically, Larry shrieks, "Don't love her! She'll kill you if you love her," then drops dead.

WAS Miranda trying to help Larry telepathically? Or did she kill him? I think it could actually be read either way, so I'm wondering what other people thought when they saw it.

One of the things I love about Miranda's character is that she's so morally gray* -- she's not a definite hero, nor is she a definite villain. She's someone who could leave the ship stuck in space because she's unwilling to share Kollos, which makes her pretty bad. But given that she's a professional woman in a 1960's environment, a telepath who's all too familiar with how evil other people are (from the things that most of us hide in our minds but which she's privvy to), and a blind person who's had to insist upon her competence all of her life, I'm sympathetic to her being terribly protective of what she has.

WAS Miranda honestly trying to help Larry, or did she contribute to his death? I think we don't know.

* I like it when our HEROES are definitely good guys, but I prefer antagonists who aren't cackling evil stereotypes but rather people who do the wrong thing from understandable motives.

I'm thinking she didn't so much kill Larry as rather feigned helping him (not sure if that's the same as deliberate murder). Larry was a hindrance to her; and she was also afraid of 'seeing' (through his mind's eye) what he saw. If she could really 'see' Kolos, she would be driven just as mad. It's also the same two reasons she dragged her feet with helping Spock; he was a (potential) rival who made her jealous, and she was also afraid of 'seeing' what he saw. And her blindness gave her a bit of a chip on her shoulders; the 'I don't want your pity' thing. It also makes you wonder if her 'interface' to her sensor web dress caused her pain like Geordi LaForge's VISOR; maybe that also gave her a bit of attitude (and it could've been another reason she studied at Vulcan; pain control).

And yes, she WAS a wonderfully morally gray character. A bit atypical for an attractive female guest star. Not an out-and-out villain, but definitely full of human frailties.

I really like this one; I gave it an 8.

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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And yes, she WAS a wonderfully morally gray character. A bit atypical for an attractive female guest star. Not an out-and-out villain, but definitely full of human frailties.

And of course that's part of the point -- Miranda is physically beautiful, so everyone assumes that she's a good person, but she turns out not to be. This script was written by a woman, and like Dorothy Fontana's scripts, this one gives us a more nuanced female character than most TOS scripts managed.

I really like this one; I gave it an 8.

I also really like this one and also gave it an 8.

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Did they ever explain why there was a human that had telepathic abilities?

I also find it interesting that once again...blindness hasn't been cured. But rather there is a tech that allows a blind person to see. Roddenberry seemed intent on not curing blindness for some reason.

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Did they ever explain why there was a human that had telepathic abilities?

I also find it interesting that once again...blindness hasn't been cured. But rather there is a tech that allows a blind person to see. Roddenberry seemed intent on not curing blindness for some reason.

No idea. There's various genetic jiggery-pokery they could have employed but we've seen time and again that's frowned on. Cloning and transplant methods have come leaps and bounds and I'd expect one of those options would be viable, unless it's something neurological. (I.e the eyes work, but the signals to the brain get messed with in some way.) I know my husband has this problem with his hearing. Ears work mechanically speaking, but the nerves to the brain are messed up along the line so he's pretty well deaf in one ear.

That said, sometime in TNG season 2 Pulaski and Geordi are discussing ways of restoring his sight but he turned it down as he didn't want to give up his ability to see things others couldn't with his VISOR.

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That said, sometime in TNG season 2 Pulaski and Geordi are discussing ways of restoring his sight but he turned it down as he didn't want to give up his ability to see things others couldn't with his VISOR.

This is why Starfleet's ban on genetically engineered serving officers really pisses me off.

It's OK to serve if you wear a mechanical prosthesis that allows you to see through walls (must've been fun in high school), but it's wrong if that same officer were born genetically enhanced with those same abilities. I cry foul. The same thing that makes Geordi's vision superior should've also kept HIM from serving as well. Bashir's alterations were done to him when he was 6 or 7 years old; he had no say in the matter. Why should HE be banned (granted he ultimately wasn't, but he almost was)? It's not as if he was Lance Armstrong or anything. He was an unwitting participant in his augmentation, yet no one would ORDER Geordi to wear a VISOR that would just give him 'normal' 20/20 vision. His unnatural ability is NO DIFFERENT than Bashir's augmented abilities. Ethically, it is the exact same thing.

Anyway, back on topic:

Miranda Jones was simply 'born' a telepath, according to dialogue. No mention of her being artificially tampered with; although it would've been interesting to revisit that character someday and explore that in detail. Maybe one of her ancestors was a leftover, unregistered 'augment' from the Eugenics wars, engineered as a telepath? Who knows...

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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That said, sometime in TNG season 2 Pulaski and Geordi are discussing ways of restoring his sight but he turned it down as he didn't want to give up his ability to see things others couldn't with his VISOR.

This is why Starfleet's ban on genetically engineered serving officers really pisses me off.

It's OK to serve if you wear a mechanical prosthesis that allows you to see through walls (must've been fun in high school), but it's wrong if that same officer were born genetically enhanced with those same abilities. I cry foul. The same thing that makes Geordi's vision superior should've also kept HIM from serving as well. Bashir's alterations were done to him when he was 6 or 7 years old; he had no say in the matter. Why should HE be banned (granted he ultimately wasn't, but he almost was)? It's not as if he was Lance Armstrong or anything. He was an unwitting participant in his augmentation, yet no one would ORDER Geordi to wear a VISOR that would just give him 'normal' 20/20 vision. His unnatural ability is NO DIFFERENT than Bashir's augmented abilities. Ethically, it is the exact same thing.

Anyway, back on topic:

Miranda Jones was simply 'born' a telepath, according to dialogue. No mention of her being artificially tampered with; although it would've been interesting to revisit that character someday and explore that in detail. Maybe one of her ancestors was a leftover, unregistered 'augment' from the Eugenics wars, engineered as a telepath? Who knows...

I suppose the thinking behind the ban is something along the lines of the 'Absolute Power' idiom. You start off doing well intentioned things like curing blindness and other disabilities and somewhere along the line you'll get someone think 'What if we did X or Y' and we could well be back down the long slide towards the Eugenics again. I certainly don't want us to become too good with genetics just yet as we've seen who knows how many wars fought over racial supremacy over the centuries already. We're just not disciplined enough not to abuse something like this IMO.

As for Miranda's telepathy. I wonder if there's some Betazoid influence in her family at some point, or from another telepathic race ...

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We're just not disciplined enough not to abuse something like this IMO.

True. But how is genetic enhancement any different from artificial prosthetic enhancement? What if one gets bionic legs that allows one to run at Cheetah speeds? Or again, a VISOR that gives a blind person superior vision?

I just fail to see how biological enhancement is so different than mechanical or prosthetic. OK, OK.... I'll get off my soapbox now. :P

As for Miranda's telepathy. I wonder if there's some Betazoid influence in her family at some point, or from another telepathic race ...

I like that. A nice theory; it fits much more elegantly than mine... :thumbup:

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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I suppose the thinking behind the ban is something along the lines of the 'Absolute Power' idiom. You start off doing well intentioned things like curing blindness and other disabilities and somewhere along the line you'll get someone think 'What if we did X or Y' and we could well be back down the long slide towards the Eugenics again. I certainly don't want us to become too good with genetics just yet as we've seen who knows how many wars fought over racial supremacy over the centuries already. We're just not disciplined enough not to abuse something like this IMO.

As for Miranda's telepathy. I wonder if there's some Betazoid influence in her family at some point, or from another telepathic race ...

It all comes down to this. You can remove prosthetics pretty easy if you go crazy with them. You can't really remove genetic re-sequencing. It's a control method of the Federation to ensure no one man or woman or child can become to powerful for them to control. Partly it comes from ones own feeling of superiority. Goes to their head. But, someone with an artificial limb rarely feels superior, but in many ways is damaged mentally by the fact they are limited in some way. Easier to control sheep that feel inferior than goats that feel superior.

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I suppose the thinking behind the ban is something along the lines of the 'Absolute Power' idiom. You start off doing well intentioned things like curing blindness and other disabilities and somewhere along the line you'll get someone think 'What if we did X or Y' and we could well be back down the long slide towards the Eugenics again. I certainly don't want us to become too good with genetics just yet as we've seen who knows how many wars fought over racial supremacy over the centuries already. We're just not disciplined enough not to abuse something like this IMO.

As for Miranda's telepathy. I wonder if there's some Betazoid influence in her family at some point, or from another telepathic race ...

It all comes down to this. You can remove prosthetics pretty easy if you go crazy with them. You can't really remove genetic re-sequencing. It's a control method of the Federation to ensure no one man or woman or child can become to powerful for them to control. Partly it comes from ones own feeling of superiority. Goes to their head. But, someone with an artificial limb rarely feels superior, but in many ways is damaged mentally by the fact they are limited in some way. Easier to control sheep that feel inferior than goats that feel superior.

Still doesn't explain Geordi's VISOR allowing him to have superior vision than his crewmates.

He has neural implants that carry his signals from his VISOR directly to his brain. And the crew doesn't seem to care that he can see thru walls (!), or can see if their body temperatures or pulse rate raises or lowers. Geordi has had his brain altered to accept the neural implants. Again, how is that different from genetic enhancement?

And if you ask me, Starfleet leadership is more concerned about maintaining its OWN superiority than the perceived superiorities of its subjects. The 'benign dictatorship'; as we've discussed in other threads.

What if a person were born with a natural mutation that gave them augment-like abilities? Would they be banned or forbidden from using their 'natural' gifts (which would make them automatically superior)? And Miranda Jones (with her natural telepathy); this is another time where Starfleet turns a blind eye and exploits her natural skills (such as they do with Geordi in the next century).

Even Picard 'uses' Troi's ethically questionable ability to tell whether someone is lying or uncomfortable (an ability we see EASILY corrupted by another Betazoid in "Drumhead"; IMO, it's one of the best and most powerful TNGs). So Starfleet already has 'super beings' (whether natural or technological) serving in its ranks. Why would it be so different to accept one who is artificially gifted.

Starfleet's leadership reminds me of the bigoted non-mutant human populace we see in the X-Men series; they exploit what they can and try to kill or suppress the rest....

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Reasons why I love this forum: you guys give a great analysis on these subject matters.

I think both sides give really good arguments. The fear of genetic engineering is a real fear because it is viewed as trans-humanism. Something that will make us less human. I can imagine this terrifying a lot of people. It may be a fear based on ignorance. But it is a fear nevertheless.

I'll be the first to point out the holes in the utopia that is the UFP but for once I feel that this isn't really a product of them wanting control over their populace. I think originally, it is supposed to be kind of an after effect of the Augments and Khan's rule over humanity. Seems that human beings are still very frightened over this. One could say this is irrational and even I think that it is starting to become a bit tiresome in the show (considering that several centuries have gone by since Khan). So they are dragging it out a bit, but the original fear made a lot of sense. They dabbled in genetic engineering and it nearly caused the enslavement of "mundanes" at the hands of these augments super beings. Its become a cautionary tale. Even for the Klingons, genetic tinkering back fired badly on them (ENT). No wonder the Romulans and Cardassians avoid it like the plague. :P Only the Dominion has been shown to have mastered it (but they don't pop up until much later).

As for Bashir, it was the slippery slope argument. Yes, make an exception for him. But then where is the line drawn? The video game Deus Ex Machina explores the idea of trans-humanism via bio-augmentation a lot better. But essentially, if a few people are "upgraded" then there will be a societal pressure to augment yourself or your children to be able to compete against these augmented people. That was the fear with Bashir. That as an officer, he had an advantage that no other human had. Funny enough, I wondered why this wasn't explored with humans vs. aliens. Data clearly had an advantage over his human crew mates. Worf did in terms of strength. Spock did in terms of intelligence. Must make the humans feel inferior at times. Although...I'm sure Roddenberry would imply humans don't have those emotions anymore.

With Geordi, it doesn't really matter that his VISOR gives him super cool "powers". I think Admiral Harmon raised an interesting point. With genetic engineering, you feel genetically superior. With bio-augmentation, you are elevated to "normal" level with help. So that superiority is kind of rendered moot. (However, you do raise an interesting point that his VISOR lets him do a lot of things no normal eyes could). Yet, he was practically in tears when he saw a sun rise with his own eyes in "Insurrection". Which I guess shows that all the superior visual abilities he had could barely make up for a moment like that. I just never understood why he was born blind. Surely the technology was there to cure him when he was in the womb? It's why I always guessed he had some type of ALIEN disease and there was no cure for it.

The EMH kind of raised that point in VOY in the episode "Photons Be Free" and he depicted his mobile emitter as a gigantic, heavy ghostbusters backpack. The others in the crew asked why he did that and he replied with something like how it felt like a burden to him to have to carry it around. Even though it gave him freedom and "superiority" over other holograms, he still was constantly reminded of his own limitations (limitations that others didn't have naturally) when it was on his arm. So I think there is some merit to the idea that bio-augmentation like Geordi had is a bit different.

Overall, I think at least Trek tried to explain why humans weren't rapantly upgrading themselves. In a lot of sci-fi, that is usually just ignored which makes little sense as genetic engineering will always be an issue in the future.

Back to the subject of the episode:

I never considered that she might be part Betazed. I had just assumed that Roddenberry was implying that telepaths were emerging on Earth like in B5...

I also love the idea of Medusans (clever name). I just used one in my fan fic. Truly an alien concept - the human mind not able to process it without going insane. Great stuff. Very Lovecraftian...

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I think originally, it is supposed to be kind of an after effect of the Augments and Khan's rule over humanity. Seems that human beings are still very frightened over this. One could say this is irrational and even I think that it is starting to become a bit tiresome in the show (considering that several centuries have gone by since Khan). So they are dragging it out a bit, but the original fear made a lot of sense.

The augmentation done in the Eugenics Wars was 20th century technology; we see how in the 22nd (with ENT's augment arc) that newer technology allowed more perfected (less aggressive) augmentation to be possible (the scene where Soong is altering the embryos aboard the Bird of Prey). It is contrary for the Federation to allow for all kinds of miraculous technology except when it came to human beings themselves. Not to praise Khan, but he had an interesting line in "Space Seed" about the future, "Oh there have been great technical advancements, but how little man himself has changed." In some ways, he was right; that line could've also referred to our fear of what we don't understand...

With genetic engineering, you feel genetically superior. With bio-augmentation, you are elevated to "normal" level with help. So that superiority is kind of rendered moot. (However, you do raise an interesting point that his VISOR lets him do a lot of things no normal eyes could). Yet, he was practically in tears when he saw a sun rise with his own eyes in "Insurrection".

Yes, but it seemed that getting him a nice pair of stem-cell grown biological eyes would've been far easier than rigging his body to accept an artificial neural implant interface to accommodate the VISOR. As for Geordi being moved by 'real' vision? Yes, that's only because Starfleet got lucky; Geordi was a good guy. But who knows if he ever exploited his powers privately? They don't monitor the output from his VISOR. He could be peeking thru walls into the quarters of a hot young ensign getting dressed.... who would know?

I never considered that she might be part Betazed. I had just assumed that Roddenberry was implying that telepaths were emerging on Earth like in B5...

That used to be my assumption too (as Betazoids were never mentioned in TOS). But the Betazed theory fits elegantly. As we saw in "Tin Man", some with more acute powers could be driven insane by having their sixth sense switched on at all times.... hence Jone's training on Vulcan.

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The augmentation done in the Eugenics Wars was 20th century technology; we see how in the 22nd (with ENT's augment arc) that newer technology allowed more perfected (less aggressive) augmentation to be possible (the scene where Soong is altering the embryos aboard the Bird of Prey). It is contrary for the Federation to allow for all kinds of miraculous technology except when it came to human beings themselves. Not to praise Khan, but he had an interesting line in "Space Seed" about the future, "Oh there have been great technical advancements, but how little man himself has changed." In some ways, he was right; that line could've also referred to our fear of what we don't understand...

That doesn't matter, though. Even if it is perfected the fear is trans-humanism. Losing our natural humanity and becoming something else entirely. That and we don't really know for sure if Soong's experiments were really successful. I haven't seen the episodes in a long time. But if those augments in the show were a reflection of his experiments, he clearly failed in making them less aggressive. Speaking of - what does that even mean? Making them less aggressive? Creating docile super beings? I am all for genetic engineering to cure disease, disabilities, ailments, etc. But I am not pro-genetic engineering in the sense of radically altering our personalities. Creating submissive, docile, non-aggressive super powered people? What exactly would the purpose of that be? That's a slippery slope to creating a "build-a-baby" hospital where you can make the baby any eye color, skin color, hair texture, height, weight, and even affect if they are aggressive or docile? To me that absolutely crosses the line and is beyond creepy.

And I always assumed the Augments "aggression" which breeded superior ambition wasn't really a flaw in the genetic engineering as much as a natural by-product of creating living-demi-gods amidst mortals. It almost seems like a natural progression. Yes, we'd hope that Augments would turn into Superman and help us, but realistically speaking? They'd probably want to dominate over us. Or at the least, it'd be a stretch that they'd see us as equals. Why would they?

Yes, but it seemed that getting him a nice pair of stem-cell grown biological eyes would've been far easier than rigging his body to accept an artificial neural implant interface to accommodate the VISOR. As for Geordi being moved by 'real' vision? Yes, that's only because Starfleet got lucky; Geordi was a good guy. But who knows if he ever exploited his powers privately? They don't monitor the output from his VISOR. He could be peeking thru walls into the quarters of a hot young ensign getting dressed.... who would know?

Well...I hate to be in the position of defending Geordi's VISOR. As I said, I never understood why he was blind in the first place. Roddenberry states that he simply wanted to show that a person with disabilities had a place in the future and was not relegated to being a non-functioning member of society. They had something to contribute too. I honestly don't know the in-universe answer as to why he is blind.

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That doesn't matter, though. Even if it is perfected the fear is trans-humanism.

I understand, but IMO it's as irrational a fear as not knowing what's around the corner.

Who's to say that augment technology couldn't be used to make more Julian Bashirs? We see that not all augments succumb to demigod arrogance. I think a lot of that depends upon the individual. Khan was a sadistic person; and his followers were the same way because.... well, they were followers. Who's to say that a 'superior' person, raised with nurturing, loving parents wouldn't turn out as 'good' as Bashir? The augments we see in TOS, TWOK and even ST09 were also reacting to people's fear of them; they became the 'boogiemen' because they were conditioned to. They were taught to believe in their own superiority rather than taught how to use it for the good of all humanity (as Bashir had).

Again, we risk creating new Napoleons or Hitlers every time we conceive a child; none of the great 'monsters' of history were in any way genetically augmented, by the way. Those monsters were just ordinary, garden variety humans.... ;)

Making them less aggressive? Creating docile super beings? I am all for genetic engineering to cure disease, disabilities, ailments, etc. But I am not pro-genetic engineering in the sense of radically altering our personalities.

Personally, I think Soong was barking up the wrong tree on this one. Their arrogance was largely because of their erroneous belief in their own superiority (which Soong VERY MUCH enabled); in "Space Seed" TWOK and the ENT augment trilogy, the 'superior' people were defeated by ordinary humans (or a nobly self-sacrificing Vulcan). I believe if a superior person were raised by good parents with strong values, he/she would turn out no better or worse than the star quarterback of the high school football team, or the chess/debate club champion.

Look at Superman being raised by the Kents? He could've squashed them like bugs if he wanted (he wasn't human at all, BTW...). But thru the Kents' patience and love, he truly became a 'super' man. Much of what made Superman the good character he was came not from his invincibility; but thru love.

Back to Medusans...

I always thought they were a TOS alien positively RIPE for future re-exploration someday.... shame TNG never exploited this opportunity.

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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That doesn't matter, though. Even if it is perfected the fear is trans-humanism.

I understand, but IMO it's as irrational a fear as not knowing what's around the corner.

Who's to say that augment technology couldn't be used to make more Julian Bashirs? We see that not all augments succumb to demigod arrogance. I think a lot of that depends upon the individual. Khan was a sadistic person; and his followers were the same way because.... well, they were followers. Who's to say that a 'superior' person, raised with nurturing, loving parents wouldn't turn out as 'good' as Bashir? The augments we see in TOS, TWOK and even ST09 were also reacting to people's fear of them; they became the 'boogiemen' because they were conditioned to. They were taught to believe in their own superiority rather than taught how to use it for the good of all humanity (as Bashir had).

Again, we risk creating new Napoleons or Hitlers every time we conceive a child; none of the great 'monsters' of history were in any way genetically augmented, by the way. Those monsters were just ordinary, garden variety humans.... ;)

Making them less aggressive? Creating docile super beings? I am all for genetic engineering to cure disease, disabilities, ailments, etc. But I am not pro-genetic engineering in the sense of radically altering our personalities.

Personally, I think Soong was barking up the wrong tree on this one. Their arrogance was largely because of their erroneous belief in their own superiority (which Soong VERY MUCH enabled); in "Space Seed" TWOK and the ENT augment trilogy, the 'superior' people were defeated by ordinary humans (or a nobly self-sacrificing Vulcan). I believe if a superior person were raised by good parents with strong values, he/she would turn out no better or worse than the star quarterback of the high school football team, or the chess/debate club champion.

Look at Superman being raised by the Kents? He could've squashed them like bugs if he wanted (he wasn't human at all, BTW...). But thru the Kents' patience and love, he truly became a 'super' man. Much of what made Superman the good character he was came not from his invincibility; but thru love.

I actually agree with you. For all we know, Khan was a product of the way people reacted to him rather than a general sense of superiority. He could have been the Magneto of Augments fighting for his people's survival and self-esteem. Didn't TOS say he was actually a great leader? The best of all tyrants? Not sure what that means, though. Maybe if they had been given a proper upbringing (ala Bashir) all of them could have turned out to be Superman equivalents.

But...that brings up the most obvious question: Why augment people at all? Even if you can temper them. Is it just because we can do it? We quote that Jurassic Park line a few times in this forum "Uh...yeah, yeah, yeah but your scientists were so preoccupied with if they could do it that they didn't stop to think if they should." I'm generally curious - not even as a source of debate - why you think that should be the next...I guess...step for us as a species?

Back to Medusans...

I always thought they were a TOS alien positively RIPE for future re-exploration someday.... shame TNG never exploited this opportunity.

Agreed! I thought these were a great addition to the Trek mythos. They would have been useful in the Dominion War. :P

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I'm generally curious - not even as a source of debate - why you think that should be the next...I guess...step for us as a species?

I see the universe as largely random chance; not 'intelligent design' or an otherwise divine product.

And from that chaos and randomness, we've created science and technology to make life easier (and better) for us (for example: do we prefer a nice house or a dark cold cave?). Even in reproduction; we can now create children for formerly 'sterile' couples. We are also dabbling in stem cell research (which, IMO, is a potentially GREAT thing, by the way). We are already tinkering with life itself. Someday, we will have all kinds of in vitro treatments to make babies 'better.' The first 'test tube' baby is already 35 years old (!). Polio (a once rampant disease) is now largely a thing of the past.

I think the next logical step (assuming stem cell or in vitro treatments are not forever halted by frightened townspeople carrying torches) would be improvement of some of our inherent design flaws; perhaps stronger aptitudes for intelligence (goodness knows we could use the brainpower; our planet is going to hell in a hand basket from our shortsightedness), or better immunity (it'd lower health costs, that's for sure); or perhaps built-in genetic preventatives that could make genetic ailments (scoliosis, spinal meningitis, predispositions for cancer, etc) things of the past.

As for improving strength? That wouldn't be a big priority IMO; but improving intelligence, eliminating predispositions towards genetic ailments, boosting immunities, better stamina, etc would be smarter goals. Those would be the sort of things genetic engineering could give us (without the current culture's over-addiction to pharmaceuticals or their side effects). Where many people see Khan Singhs; I see Julian Bashirs. Technology has already given the current generation a leg up on their analog-era ancestors (grandparents asking their grandkids how to use a smart phone); how would helping the next generation's health or intelligence levels be any different?

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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Really liked the episodes, especially after last weeks episode (And The Children Shall Lead) which I didn't like at all.

This one I give an 8

Did not realize Diana Muldaur was such a beautiful women!

What I did not understand was in the last scene when Miranda beams of the ship, Spock is wearing his 3D :biggrin: glasses but Kirk is also in the room without any glasses.

Error or am I missing something?

Edited by MS1-DS9-Fan

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