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Voyager

Endgame pt1 & 2

Favorite Overall Trek Series/Movie  

206 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your overall favorite Star Trek series?

    • Star Trek: Enterprise
      16
    • Star Trek: The Original Series
      51
    • Star Trek: The Animated Series
      0
    • Star Trek: The Next Generation
      55
    • Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
      50
    • Star Trek: Voyager
      34
  2. 2. What is your overall favorite Star Trek movie?

    • Star Trek - I: The Motion Picture
      10
    • Star Trek - II: The Wrath of Khan
      41
    • Star Trek - III: The Search for Spock
      7
    • Star Trek - IV: The Voyage Home
      22
    • Star Trek - V: The Final Frontier
      4
    • Star Trek - VI: The Undiscovered Country
      29
    • Star Trek - VII: Generations
      11
    • Star Trek - VIII: First Contact
      64
    • Star Trek - IX: Insurrection
      7
    • Star Trek - X: Nemesis
      11


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Okay, I fold. Despite the C/7, I've got to give this a 10 because it's my favourite episode. I love seeing Janeway interact with her older self.

I know i'm responding to this about a YEAR later but why is this your favourite episode? I loved Voyager but this just was not how i wanted it to end really.

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Okay, I fold. Despite the C/7, I've got to give this a 10 because it's my favourite episode. I love seeing Janeway interact with her older self.

I know i'm responding to this about a YEAR later but why is this your favourite episode? I loved Voyager but this just was not how i wanted it to end really.

Everybody seems to say that they were disappointed with the ending - that they wanted to see the crew return to Earth and see how they interact once they were back on the planet. But for me, I liked the way it ended. I can envisage the kind of celebrations that would be had, and that families are going to be overjoyed. I don't need to see all that - they did that with DS9 in 'What You Leave Behind', and to be honest, that final episode bored me. I felt more emotion from seeing the brief reactions of their faces before finally being escorted by the family of ships back home. Janeway has been saying 'set a course for home' for seven years, and to just hear it that one last time in a new context just holds a lot of resonance for me.

I think it is my favourite episode for a number of reasons:

1. The goal the crew set out for at the beginning of the series is finally achieved - it gives that sense of satisfaction and completion

2. Janeway is my favourite character and the episode is very Janeway centric - I love that we get two Janeway's, and we see how the older Janeway has changed

3. The sense of family just feels so strong, and I feel their determination inspiring

4. Their final confrontation against the Borg/Queen

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Fair enough. Most of that is stuff we did not see though. I just think what was on screen could have been done differently. I like the fact they used the Borg to get home but using time-travel i felt was a copout. There should have been a way they used Species 8472 in the process by involving them in the finale.

I envisioned a mirror to Scorpion where they make an alliance with 8472 with Voyager covered in bio-armour akin to how Voyager was modified by the Borg.

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That would have been interesting, but for once, I really liked the time travel aspect - probably because we see the crew in the future and then go to the present, rather than going from the present to the future/past.

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Leaving aside the fact it came from nowhere and was probably just tacked on to give Chakotay a reason for being there, I actually liked the scenes with him and Seven, simply because we see a more human side to Seven that's taken this long for her to come to terms with and feel comfortable expressing.

I also want to add: That ablative armour effect is one of the coolest things I have ever seen. :)

I was watching Endgame the other night and part of me wants to dust down the muse and write some short stories that covers their original journey home.

Edited by Starblind

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Leaving aside the fact it came from nowhere and was probably just tacked on to give Chakotay a reason for being there, I actually liked the scenes with him and Seven, simply because we see a more human side to Seven that's taken this long for her to come to terms with and feel comfortable expressing.

I also want to add: That ablative armour effect is one of the coolest things I have ever seen. :)

I was watching Endgame the other night and part of me wants to dust down the muse and write some short stories that covers their original journey home.

While I whole heartedly agree and thats what book three of my fanfics covered, was the real crew finally after about 14 years getting home.

But, while the Chakotay and Seven scenes were pleasant to watch, because there really was no lead up besides Seven's holographic fantasizing about him, it does come off pretty awkward.

I also like though that the Janeway we get in the older version is the same person that was younger. I also don't buy that she gave up coffee, because she was back in bed with it too easily. I don't mind the whole future Janeway going back. Her first and only concern was her crew, and even if it affected billions by altering the timeline, she was going to save three of her crew. So much for the needs of the many and all that jazz.

But, as I've stated before, I can only watch the episode if I think that the Borg was only severally crippled and not wipe out. A massive behemoth like the Borg cannot be taken out so easily. They are a machine, with backups upon backups. A virus taking out the entire Collective is beyond the realm of resonability for me. I do realize Voyager's producers set out in a holy mission to de-claw the Borg. But still, even future Janeway, who had fought the Borg over and over did not believe even these backward hicks of Borg compared to her Borg could be overthrown by their simple act of attrition.

As an episode, I'd give it a 9, because it is a good story and all that. But, as part of continuity I give it a 6.

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I've never bought into the theory that the Borg were annihilated either. Even in her death throes the Queen could sense and reach out to unaffected ships and we know there's five other transwarp hubs out there somewhere, albeit with reduced capabilities to defend themselves now the unicomplex was destroyed. They only lost the sixth hub because Voyager attacked it en-route home while the shielding was inoperative.

As it is we've seen the Borg survive the shock of several Queens being destroyed (and seemingly quickly replaced) and disruption caused by viruses and destructive influences (Hugh's reintroduction for instance). There's no reason to think they'd be beaten now.

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I've never bought into the theory that the Borg were annihilated either. Even in her death throes the Queen could sense and reach out to unaffected ships and we know there's five other transwarp hubs out there somewhere, albeit with reduced capabilities to defend themselves now the unicomplex was destroyed. They only lost the sixth hub because Voyager attacked it en-route home while the shielding was inoperative.

As it is we've seen the Borg survive the shock of several Queens being destroyed (and seemingly quickly replaced) and disruption caused by viruses and destructive influences (Hugh's reintroduction for instance). There's no reason to think they'd be beaten now.

They also never said they were annihlating the Borg either. All they said was "deal a crippling blow". People can recover, nations, races can recover from crippling blows. It's just going to take time.

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All in all, this is a pretty good finale (although obviously not as good as All Good Things or What You leave Behind).

I liked the scenes in the future. Seeing the uniforms (and the Klingon ships) from All Good Things again was good, and Barclay is always good to watch.

The Borg, with Alice Kreige reprising her role from First Contact, were also good, although by this point they had lost most of their "wow" factor and didn't do anything new.

The bit about B'Elanna going into labour was a necessary evil I think; not overly interesting, but they had to show the birth.

And I'm glad they got home in the end. If they hadn't, the whole series would have just been a complete anti-climax.

Now for the bad:

The Chakotay/Seven thing was ridiculously stupid and completely out-of-the-blue. Never had we had so much as an inkling that Chakotay felt like that for her. And for him to be so completely distraught that she died was just adding insult to injury.

What this episode lacked was much in the way of character development, which at least makes it consistent with the rest of Voyager. There were some good scenes in the future, but the present wasn't really explored at all and you never really got the sense that this was the finale, it could have been a standard episode from any season really. - What were the crew thinking? Where was the nostalgia? Related to this is that the episode is far too focussed on Janeway, at the expense of almost everyone else.

The plot was largely recycled from the 100th episode, Timeless.

There are many issues with the timeline; from then on were they all living in an alternate one? Surely there would be quite a few objections to that?

I also really wanted to see what happened after they all got home. What happened to everyone; where did they go, what did they do?

Overall, it wasn't bad, but I would have preferred it to happen earlier in the show (instead of Unimatrix Zero for example), although a timeship from the future should have come and thwarted their plan at the last minute.

A few episodes before the end, they should have got home through a more conventional means; a Wormhole for example, and then we could have had a few episodes showing us what happened to them all afterwards.

I thought that something like Shattered would have made a better finale.

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I wish I could give it more than a 7, but that's about all I can do.

There are so many annoying, nagging issues with this episode.

Admiral Janeway REWRITING THE ENTIRE LAST 25 OR SO YEARS OF HISTORY just to save three of her friends and get her crew home earlier?!?

This is probably the single WORST infraction of everything starfleet stands for I've ever seen; makes Kirk hijacking the Enterprise in the ST movies look like peanuts by comparison. Think of all the potential GOOD she is undoing; how many of her crew in the new timeline were having successful lives? How many children and grandchildren of theirs might have already been born??? She might undo them all by what she did. Seriously; this is unforgivable. I presume Janeway never read "A Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury. "Endgame" also assumes the Chakotay and Seven were a good couple. Now forgive me, but those two had all the compatibility and chemistry of a dolphin and a bicycle. When they were together, they were like two department store mannequins. They were probably the worst pairing in ST, next to Neelix and Kes (only slightly less creepy). It was also weird how in the WHOLE time they knew each other (three seasons or so), there was not even the slightest hint of romantic chemistry between them WHATSOEVER. Even in the sequel novel, "Homecoming" they immediately broke up when they came to earth....

And I loved everything we saw in the (alternate) 25th century (before Janeway screwed with it); Reg and the Doctor becoming old friends, Paris and B'Lanna's girl growing up to be a spitfire, the Borg being taught in 'history' class at Starfleet Academy. I would've been OK if that alternate future had been the 'flash forward' finale of the show. Maybe the teaser could've had Voyager flying over San Francisco bay and then after the theme song? Boom! Cut to "25 years later..." And the 25th century future is shown. The crew is now reassembling on the anniversary of Voyager coming home. That would've been far more satisfying to me, as I liked the 25th century we saw and hated to think it was totally undone just for three crew members (Seven, Chakotay and Tuvok).

Ron Moore's remake of "Battlestar Galactica" did two 'jumps' to the future; one was a year later (after Baltar's election to the presidency and the settling of New Caprica) and in the series finale they had another that was "150,000 Years Later..." (which had the jump cut to modern day NYC). I think this time jump would've made the season finale of V'ger much more satisfying; it would be both a finale AND a reunion show, all in one. ;)

But no! Of course not; Janeway had to f#@k up a perfectly good (and valid) timeline by going back to make sure Seven didn't die (so help me, she seemed to put Seven ahead of her crew VERY often.... one has to wonder if her interest was just 'friendship' or something more). How many babies were born into this timeline that were going to be undone? The Doctor was even starting a new relationship; and that was now going to be undone too! IMO, Admiral Janeway's DELIBERATE rewriting of history (and altering countless thousands of lives) was a far more serious infraction than any other starfleet officer.

And as for Admiral Janeway undoing history to 'eliminate the Borg threat'? That's bulls#!t, too. The Borg were no longer a threat as we saw in the alternate 25th century; Starfleet academy students were learning about them in school as a historical subject; doesn't sound like they conquered the Alpha quadrant to me. And Janeway STILL got her crew home anyway (even in the alternate timeline). So her going back and infecting the Borg queen was just Janeway committing genocide FOR NO GOOD REASON. The crew were going to make it home anyway; and in the future, the Borg were NO LONGER a threat to Starfleet command as we saw by the obvious evidence of Starfleet academy still going strong with a fresh new class of cadets.

Admiral Janeway didn't seem to give two poops for the people who's lives she might've made worse by undoing THEIR timeline.

Now, in its defense, I actually enjoyed Endgame somewhat for various reasons. It was nice to have the 'real' Borg queen Alice Krige back (which begs the question; when this queen dies, as Krige did in the movie First Contact, won't another just take her place, too?!?). Krige has a bit more of a masochistic edge than Susanna Thompson's version. I enjoyed seeing Tom and B'lanna as nervous prospective parents. Overall, a nice, action-filled episode but as a finale, there are just too many bothersome ethical questions for me to really love it.

A rating of 7 is the best I can muster for it personally...

Edited by Sehlat Vie

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One of the worst episodes of Trek and before ENT came along, one of the worst finales of the franchise. Hands down the worst episode in VOY at least. It was insulting to the crew, the story, and everything about it. I mean even the actors of the show disliked it. Terrible send off. The best the writers could come up with is "rehash the Borg and time travel"? The two things VOY overused in its seven seasons. What the hell were they thinking?

Let's do a show where we don't show them getting home. Since you know...the entire show was about them getting home.

Janeway was always depicted as criminally insane, but this tops every other crime she committed in the past. She literaly erases history for all the sentients in the galaxy to save three people. To make matters worse, Starfleet promotes her for it? This is why I take the "joke" serious that she was promoted to put her behind a desk where she wouldn't hurt anymore people. I think they should have put her character through a trial for those actions. No joke. Not only did she erase the history of all the people in the Alpha Quadrant, but according to Granny Janeway, VOY would have had decades worth more adventures in the Delta Quad. What if the crew of VOY had helped/saved people in that time? What if they made important discoveries? What if new relationships and friendships had been formed in that time? All gone. It also makes Janeway look like a petulant child. Spoiled. If someone in her life dies, she'd gladly rape time to get them back. No other captain did that. Even Kirk didn't go back in time to save Spock. Sisko didn't go back in time to save Jennifer or Dax. Picard didn't go back in time to save his family in France. Apparently, all the others can cope with death but not her. What a final slap to her character by the writers. It also shows she doesn't give a damn about anyone beyond her senior staff. How many officers died and she didn't go back for them? Joe Carey died like a month or two before the events of Endgame. Couldn't save him eh? He only had a family waiting for him in the Alpha Quad. This episode cemeted my hatred for the Janeway character.

On the issue of the Borg, ugh... There is no way the virus wiped out an ancient alien race that had absorbed the knowledge of millions of alien races. How could a virus bring them down? Even one from the future. That's like in Independence Day when Jeff Goldblum uploaded a Windows virus into the alien mothership. Friggin stupid ending.

I also feel like the writers didn't have any care for the show. They treated it cheaply. To have Janeway wantonly destroy the timeline that way to instigates a "cool battle" against the Borg was cheap. Its the equivalent of haning Kirk murder an alien species, steal their time travel tech, jump in the future and fight the Dominion. Just for the "lawlz". Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

Kim letting Granny Janeway do that? By that point, he had had decades worth of a new crew. A new family and he sanctioned Janeway undoing all of that. Even in the episode "Timeless" (as someone pointed out that this episode ripped off of), Future Geordi was trying to stop Chakotay because he wanted to protect his crew and the timeline. Chakotay's actions might alter them in some way. La Forge was a much better captain than Kim or Janeway.

I won't even get into how stupid Chakotay and Seven were. That was obviously Beltran moaning he had nothing to do, so they threw him a bone and gave him a Seven relationship. Seven belonged with the Doctor, not Chuckles.

The VOY batmobile looked laughable at times, but I kind of like the outer armor idea. It just had a poor execution. On a side note, Janeway let the Borg adapt to that technology...

The plot line itself was mostly boring too and nothing came full circle. In All Good Things... it came full circle with Q's trial. In What you Leave Behind... it came full circle with the Prophets/Dominion War. In Undiscovered Country (I count this as the finale of old TOS), it came full circle with the UFP/Klingons and the ENT crew darting off into the unknown reaches of space. In ENT............................. Yeah................................ The female Caretaker should have been the final villain, not the Borg Queen.

The good things?

Nice connection to the 25th century established in TNG, continued in DS9.

The actress playing Miral Paris was well selected. I could honestly believe that was Torres' daughter. Hell, that actress could have been used as a young Torres during her Maquis days if they ever went the prequal route. She even had Dawson's mannerisms down.

Seven of Nine and the EMH were in it.

The final shot of VOY being led to earth by the fleet was pretty moving (and that's coming from me - public enemy # 1 to VOY)

It ended the mess that was VOY

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That's about it.

It'll get a polite 0 from me. The minor good it has brought it up from -4 to 0.

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One of the worst episodes of Trek and before ENT came along, one of the worst finales of the franchise. Hands down the worst episode in VOY at least. It was insulting to the crew, the story, and everything about it. I mean even the actors of the show disliked it. Terrible send off. The best the writers could come up with is "rehash the Borg and time travel"? The two things VOY overused in its seven seasons. What the hell were they thinking?

Strongly disagree. This are one of the best episodes of star trek.

Borg was the main villain of the series, so it is logical that they used Borg for the final episode. Same way as DS9 uses Dominion.

Let's do a show where we don't show them getting home. Since you know...the entire show was about them getting home.

Same way as in DS9 we do not see Bajor join Federation, and whole series was about that.

Voyager returned home, and that was the point of the series.

Janeway was always depicted as criminally insane, but this tops every other crime she committed in the past. She literaly erases history for all the sentients in the galaxy to save three people. To make matters worse, Starfleet promotes her for it? This is why I take the "joke" serious that she was promoted to put her behind a desk where she wouldn't hurt anymore people. I think they should have put her character through a trial for those actions. No joke. Not only did she erase the history of all the people in the Alpha Quadrant, but according to Granny Janeway, VOY would have had decades worth more adventures in the Delta Quad. What if the crew of VOY had helped/saved people in that time? What if they made important discoveries? What if new relationships and friendships had been formed in that time? All gone. It also makes Janeway look like a petulant child. Spoiled. If someone in her life dies, she'd gladly rape time to get them back. No other captain did that. Even Kirk didn't go back in time to save Spock. Sisko didn't go back in time to save Jennifer or Dax. Picard didn't go back in time to save his family in France. Apparently, all the others can cope with death but not her. What a final slap to her character by the writers. It also shows she doesn't give a damn about anyone beyond her senior staff. How many officers died and she didn't go back for them? Joe Carey died like a month or two before the events of Endgame. Couldn't save him eh? He only had a family waiting for him in the Alpha Quad. This episode cemeted my hatred for the Janeway character.

1. Old version of Janeway changed the timeline, not our Janeway. Our Janeway did not do anything. She did not changed timeline.

2. Janeway was one of the best character in star trek. The best captain in my opinion. Definitely not insane. She did not committed any crime. And she did not break any fedaration rule in any way more than any other captain in star trek. Sisko has committed far more violation of federation rules.

3. Janeway deserved her promotion. And if Star trek 2009 is a canon, then old Janeway did not erased anything, but just created new alternative timeline.

On the issue of the Borg, ugh... There is no way the virus wiped out an ancient alien race that had absorbed the knowledge of millions of alien races. How could a virus bring them down? Even one from the future. That's like in Independence Day when Jeff Goldblum uploaded a Windows virus into the alien mothership. Friggin stupid ending.

And how is that any different than founders virus created by section 31 in DS9???

Or mathematical Equation with whom they wanted to destroy Borg in TNG?

Borg is not perfect. Virus in Endgame was from future.

I also feel like the writers didn't have any care for the show. They treated it cheaply. To have Janeway wantonly destroy the timeline that way to instigates a "cool battle" against the Borg was cheap. Its the equivalent of haning Kirk murder an alien species, steal their time travel tech, jump in the future and fight the Dominion. Just for the "lawlz". Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

That is only your opinion. I'am strongly disagree with that your opinion.

We have cool battles in all star trek series. DS9 is full of them. So DS9 is cheap then???

Kim letting Granny Janeway do that? By that point, he had had decades worth of a new crew. A new family and he sanctioned Janeway undoing all of that. Even in the episode "Timeless" (as someone pointed out that this episode ripped off of), Future Geordi was trying to stop Chakotay because he wanted to protect his crew and the timeline. Chakotay's actions might alter them in some way. La Forge was a much better captain than Kim or Janeway.

And if Star trek 2009 is a canon, timeline can not be destroyed. They can just create a new alternative timeline.

Plus timeline was changed in TNG in several occasions.

I won't even get into how stupid Chakotay and Seven were. That was obviously Beltran moaning he had nothing to do, so they threw him a bone and gave him a Seven relationship. Seven belonged with the Doctor, not Chuckles.

Not in my opinion. I do not like 7 of 9 and Chakotay together, but she and the Doctor would be far more worst. Because Doctor was her mentor, her close friend. It would feel almost like incest.

The VOY batmobile looked laughable at times, but I kind of like the outer armor idea. It just had a poor execution. On a side note, Janeway let the Borg adapt to that technology...

Voyager with futuristic tehnology looked cool.

The plot line itself was mostly boring too and nothing came full circle. In All Good Things... it came full circle with Q's trial. In What you Leave Behind... it came full circle with the Prophets/Dominion War. In Undiscovered Country (I count this as the finale of old TOS), it came full circle with the UFP/Klingons and the ENT crew darting off into the unknown reaches of space. In ENT............................. Yeah................................ The female Caretaker should have been the final villain, not the Borg Queen.

Really???

Nothing boring in this episode at all.

Plus all goals of the series are achieved at the end. Voyager is home. B'elanna and Paris child is born. Borg, main villian of the series is destroyed....

Edited by Esmeralda

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Yes, it was bothersome that Elder Janeway changed her past by going back and helping Voyager take a short-cut home. However, as Q said to Picard in Tapestry, changing his past wouldn't cause galaxy's to implode or the Federation to fall. 'To be blunt Jean Luc, you aren't that important.'

I think the changes would be more localized. Immediate friends and family of the crew would be affected. Starfleet was in communication with Voyager, so any info they would bring back was already known, and one more ship wouldn't make a tactical difference. Who knows if they could have made the adaptations given to Voyager apply to their fleet, but I don't think even that affects whether babies are born back on Earth. What was more bothersome for me was that the timeship didn't prevent it from happening. They really dropped the ball there.

From a writing standpoint, what was disappointing was they had all of Season 7 to prepare for the ending of the series, and they meandered along with a bunch of one-off episodes with no real progress. Then they did a timey-whimey episode to wrap things up, which felt like cheating. I would have preferred that they had found a wormhole or something at the beginning of Season 7, and used season 7 to use Voyager's contacts to establish trust with the locals and a Delta Quadrant expansion for the Federation.

I do get though why they didn't show them back on Earth, it would have taken airtime for a very predictable closing. I thought DS9's finale made the mistake of spending too much time reminiscing and book-ending personal relationships which could have been done in the episode before the finale and took air time away from the real denouement, the ending of the war and the battle on Cardassia. The peace treaty signing should have been the final scene of that series IMO.

As for ENT's ending? Who cares, that series bombed too badly, and the ratings were dropping near the end too precipitously to justify a 'real' ending, and not having Frakes and Sirtis do cameos. They were a framing device that put ENT in historical context, and parachuted in two more interesting characters than anyone on the ENT series. If anything, they put the 'Star Trek canon approved' stamp on a series that could have easily just been ignored as not real canon.

I disagree that Chakotay-Seven came out of left field, there was an episode earlier in season 7 when Seven practiced social settings by dating a holographic Chakotay. The real Chakotay urged her to open up, unaware of her holodeck activities. Whether you buy their chemistry or not, well... Beltran was just mailing it in by that point. It's one of the reasons why I thought Season 4 was the strongest of the run, Beltran was still marginally trying, and Seven's intro strengthened the series and was a badly needed retool.

As for the Borg, I don't think the threat is eliminated, I just think they will be licking their wounds for the next couple decades. The caretaker was part of the weak opening for the series before the retooling, I'm fine with them not going back to the well on that idea. The Borg are the main villain for Voyager, and they needed to have some closure there. They did come full circle, if you consider the series as starting in season 4 and ignore the mediocre first three seasons.

Why didn't Janeway jump back earlier in time and for example save Joe Carey? Probably because Voyager wasn't close enough to the trans-warp conduits yet. What was a real head-scratcher is why Seven never mentioned them before. She was obviously aware of their existence. I suppose she could have seen it as suicidal to attempt to use one, but still why not bring up the option?

I give this a 7. There were definitely better episodes during Voyager's run. I liked getting the glimpse of the future, but don't like how they decided to wrap it up. All good things... was the best series finale by a long shot of the Trek franchise, unless you count Movie 6 for TOS. Voyager's finale had some entertainment value but weak writing choices, while I thought DS9's was just OK, too sappy and long winded for characters that I cared little for and had holes (no Jadzia Dax, no Jake/Ben sendoff, life choices by Ben that I thought were selfish), and ENT's finale was weak, but still better than most episodes of ENT's run.

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Ah. Challenge ACCEPTED. :P My replies are in BOLD.

One of the worst episodes of Trek and before ENT came along, one of the worst finales of the franchise. Hands down the worst episode in VOY at least. It was insulting to the crew, the story, and everything about it. I mean even the actors of the show disliked it. Terrible send off. The best the writers could come up with is "rehash the Borg and time travel"? The two things VOY overused in its seven seasons. What the hell were they thinking?

Strongly disagree. This are one of the best episodes of star trek.

Agree to disagree.

Borg was the main villain of the series, so it is logical that they used Borg for the final episode. Same way as DS9 uses Dominion.

DS9's finale didn't just end with the Dominion. It ended the arc established inepisode 1 - the Prophets/Emissary. The Borg were not VOY's enemy from the get-go. The Caretakers were. At least the female one was. It should have ended with her.

Let's do a show where we don't show them getting home. Since you know...the entire show was about them getting home.

Same way as in DS9 we do not see Bajor join Federation, and whole series was about that.

A flaw I've pointed out in the past. The whole series was NOT about Bajor joining the UFP.

Voyager returned home, and that was the point of the series.

Except we didn't see it...

Janeway was always depicted as criminally insane, but this tops every other crime she committed in the past. She literaly erases history for all the sentients in the galaxy to save three people. To make matters worse, Starfleet promotes her for it? This is why I take the "joke" serious that she was promoted to put her behind a desk where she wouldn't hurt anymore people. I think they should have put her character through a trial for those actions. No joke. Not only did she erase the history of all the people in the Alpha Quadrant, but according to Granny Janeway, VOY would have had decades worth more adventures in the Delta Quad. What if the crew of VOY had helped/saved people in that time? What if they made important discoveries? What if new relationships and friendships had been formed in that time? All gone. It also makes Janeway look like a petulant child. Spoiled. If someone in her life dies, she'd gladly rape time to get them back. No other captain did that. Even Kirk didn't go back in time to save Spock. Sisko didn't go back in time to save Jennifer or Dax. Picard didn't go back in time to save his family in France. Apparently, all the others can cope with death but not her. What a final slap to her character by the writers. It also shows she doesn't give a damn about anyone beyond her senior staff. How many officers died and she didn't go back for them? Joe Carey died like a month or two before the events of Endgame. Couldn't save him eh? He only had a family waiting for him in the Alpha Quad. This episode cemeted my hatred for the Janeway character.

1. Old version of Janeway changed the timeline, not our Janeway. Our Janeway did not do anything. She did not changed timeline.

...."our" Janeway went along with it. She's complicit in the crime. Old Janeway IS Janeway.

2. Janeway was one of the best character in star trek. The best captain in my opinion. Definitely not insane. She did not committed any crime. And she did not break any fedaration rule in any way more than any other captain in star trek. Sisko has committed far more violation of federation rules.

No, he didn't. If you're going to post here for a discussion, there is no reason to make up nonsense. Janeway did break the prime directive. Several times. She admitted it. What? Is she involved in a conspiracy against herself? The other captains didn't do anything like what she did.

3. Janeway deserved her promotion. And if Star trek 2009 is a canon, then old Janeway did not erased anything, but just created new alternative timeline.

No, she didn't.

What does Star Trek 2009 have to do with this?

On the issue of the Borg, ugh... There is no way the virus wiped out an ancient alien race that had absorbed the knowledge of millions of alien races. How could a virus bring them down? Even one from the future. That's like in Independence Day when Jeff Goldblum uploaded a Windows virus into the alien mothership. Friggin stupid ending.

And how is that any different than founders virus created by section 31 in DS9???

Or mathematical Equation with whom they wanted to destroy Borg in TNG?

How is that different? Um...the Founders did not "absorb"/assimilate the knowledge of millions of species. They should have technology (including medical technology) so advanced that the idea of infecting them with a virus is laughable.

A mathematical equation was used to destroy the Borg in TNG? What...?

Borg is not perfect. Virus in Endgame was from future.

Perfection has nothing to do with it.

Yeah...like 30 years in the future...not 300 years. 30 years is not enough time.

I also feel like the writers didn't have any care for the show. They treated it cheaply. To have Janeway wantonly destroy the timeline that way to instigates a "cool battle" against the Borg was cheap. Its the equivalent of haning Kirk murder an alien species, steal their time travel tech, jump in the future and fight the Dominion. Just for the "lawlz". Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

That is only your opinion. I'am strongly disagree with that your opinion.

Not just my opinion. The cast of the show said the finale was terrible. So I am aligned with the cast of VOY's opinion. Ironically, you the fan, are not. But yes, you disagree with me. I got it.

We have cool battles in all star trek series. DS9 is full of them. So DS9 is cheap then???

The battles in DS9/TNG/TOS/ENT made sense. You're missing my point. There was no reason for the Borg to be brought back. It was simply done to show off the stupid future technology.

Kim letting Granny Janeway do that? By that point, he had had decades worth of a new crew. A new family and he sanctioned Janeway undoing all of that. Even in the episode "Timeless" (as someone pointed out that this episode ripped off of), Future Geordi was trying to stop Chakotay because he wanted to protect his crew and the timeline. Chakotay's actions might alter them in some way. La Forge was a much better captain than Kim or Janeway.

And if Star trek 2009 is a canon, timeline can not be destroyed. They can just create a new alternative timeline.

Janeway did not know that. There is a reason Kim and young Janeway tried to stop her actions. Because they believed the timeline would be erased/replaced. Trek used to treat time travel that way. That is why when they went back in time and messed things up, they had to fix it. It was only this crappy Abrams movie that changed that. In other words, your defense is "Janeway got lucky. All she did was make a new timeline..." Yep...luck.

Plus timeline was changed in TNG in several occasions.

Yeah, but it wasn't at the expense of other people to save like three people.

I won't even get into how stupid Chakotay and Seven were. That was obviously Beltran moaning he had nothing to do, so they threw him a bone and gave him a Seven relationship. Seven belonged with the Doctor, not Chuckles.

Not in my opinion. I do not like 7 of 9 and Chakotay together, but she and the Doctor would be far more worst. Because Doctor was her mentor, her close friend. It would feel almost like incest.

Incest? What are you talking about? In the show he clearly was attracted to her. He even admitted it in the episode where they were watching his day dreams. Are you saying the EMH was into incest? He didn't see her as a sister or daughter.

The VOY batmobile looked laughable at times, but I kind of like the outer armor idea. It just had a poor execution. On a side note, Janeway let the Borg adapt to that technology...

Voyager with futuristic tehnology looked cool.

Ok...

The plot line itself was mostly boring too and nothing came full circle. In All Good Things... it came full circle with Q's trial. In What you Leave Behind... it came full circle with the Prophets/Dominion War. In Undiscovered Country (I count this as the finale of old TOS), it came full circle with the UFP/Klingons and the ENT crew darting off into the unknown reaches of space. In ENT............................. Yeah................................ The female Caretaker should have been the final villain, not the Borg Queen.

Really???

Yes, really.

Nothing boring in this episode at all.

Ok....

Plus all goals of the series are achieved at the end. Voyager is home. B'elanna and Paris child is born. Borg, main villian of the series is destroyed....

Yes and all she had to do was destroy the timeline to "achieve" the goals. Lovely. By your logic, all those times the VOY crew sacrificed a chance to get home to uphold the prime directive was pointless. In the end, do whatever you need to do to get home.

Borg aren't destroyed.

Yes, it was bothersome that Elder Janeway changed her past by going back and helping Voyager take a short-cut home. However, as Q said to Picard in Tapestry, changing his past wouldn't cause galaxy's to implode or the Federation to fall. 'To be blunt Jean Luc, you aren't that important.'

Janeway didn't change just her individual past. She changed the past of the entire VOY crew, the crew Kim was going to have, and all the other aliens the VOY crew was going to interact with in the Delta Quadrant. Not to mention, I always felt Q said that to just shut Picard up. He knew in the end Picard would choose to keep the timeline intact. Not to mention, Q would have been wrong. If Picard amounted to nothing and never became Captain then he never would have stopped the Borg at Earth. History would be assimilated. Picard not being Captain would cause the federation to implode...

I think the changes would be more localized. Immediate friends and family of the crew would be affected. Starfleet was in communication with Voyager, so any info they would bring back was already known, and one more ship wouldn't make a tactical difference. Who knows if they could have made the adaptations given to Voyager apply to their fleet, but I don't think even that affects whether babies are born back on Earth. What was more bothersome for me was that the timeship didn't prevent it from happening. They really dropped the ball there.

From the perspective of the time-patrolling Federation, anythign done in the past already happened to lead up to their future. So unless someone from THEIR timeline went back to mess things up, why would they go back in time to stop Janeway?

But as I pointed out above, her changes would affect more than localized events.

From a writing standpoint, what was disappointing was they had all of Season 7 to prepare for the ending of the series, and they meandered along with a bunch of one-off episodes with no real progress. Then they did a timey-whimey episode to wrap things up, which felt like cheating. I would have preferred that they had found a wormhole or something at the beginning of Season 7, and used season 7 to use Voyager's contacts to establish trust with the locals and a Delta Quadrant expansion for the Federation.

Agreed 100%. I too felt that the last season should have taken place in the Alpha Quadrant.

I do get though why they didn't show them back on Earth, it would have taken airtime for a very predictable closing. I thought DS9's finale made the mistake of spending too much time reminiscing and book-ending personal relationships which could have been done in the episode before the finale and took air time away from the real denouement, the ending of the war and the battle on Cardassia. The peace treaty signing should have been the final scene of that series IMO.

But the entire show wasn't about the Dominion War. So ending it on that note would fall flat (IMHO). DS9 wrapped up story lines instead of just letting them sit there and flounder like VOY did.

As for ENT's ending? Who cares, that series bombed too badly, and the ratings were dropping near the end too precipitously to justify a 'real' ending, and not having Frakes and Sirtis do cameos. They were a framing device that put ENT in historical context, and parachuted in two more interesting characters than anyone on the ENT series. If anything, they put the 'Star Trek canon approved' stamp on a series that could have easily just been ignored as not real canon.

Well...some people care cause some people liked the show. I did.

I disagree that Chakotay-Seven came out of left field, there was an episode earlier in season 7 when Seven practiced social settings by dating a holographic Chakotay. The real Chakotay urged her to open up, unaware of her holodeck activities. Whether you buy their chemistry or not, well... Beltran was just mailing it in by that point. It's one of the reasons why I thought Season 4 was the strongest of the run, Beltran was still marginally trying, and Seven's intro strengthened the series and was a badly needed retool.

One or two episodes of set up is still pretty weak. The EMH and Seven had several seasons. Chuckles and Seven had like two episodes. And it still came out of no where. Because I believe she fantasized about him on the holodeck. Where did that come from? Torres had more of a legit attraction to Chakotay than Seven.

As for the Borg, I don't think the threat is eliminated, I just think they will be licking their wounds for the next couple decades. The caretaker was part of the weak opening for the series before the retooling, I'm fine with them not going back to the well on that idea. The Borg are the main villain for Voyager, and they needed to have some closure there. They did come full circle, if you consider the series as starting in season 4 and ignore the mediocre first three seasons.

I don't consider season 4 to be the beginning. The Caretaker may have been weak, but they were still the beginning. They were the reason they were in the Delta quadrant. Not the Borg. The Borg were just...there. Not to mention, the Female Caretaker said she would one day get revenge, but she never did...

Why didn't Janeway jump back earlier in time and for example save Joe Carey? Probably because Voyager wasn't close enough to the trans-warp conduits yet. What was a real head-scratcher is why Seven never mentioned them before. She was obviously aware of their existence. I suppose she could have seen it as suicidal to attempt to use one, but still why not bring up the option?

I'd have to check the stardates but I'm pretty sure those episodes were like a month or two apart. She couldn't sit tight on the ship for a month (giving them more time to put the future tech together)?

Yeah, I agree. It is odd Seven never said anything about it.

I give this a 7. There were definitely better episodes during Voyager's run. I liked getting the glimpse of the future, but don't like how they decided to wrap it up. All good things... was the best series finale by a long shot of the Trek franchise, unless you count Movie 6 for TOS. Voyager's finale had some entertainment value but weak writing choices, while I thought DS9's was just OK, too sappy and long winded for characters that I cared little for and had holes (no Jadzia Dax, no Jake/Ben sendoff, life choices by Ben that I thought were selfish), and ENT's finale was weak, but still better than most episodes of ENT's run.

Hm.

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Janeway didn't change just her individual past. She changed the past of the entire VOY crew, the crew Kim was going to have, and all the other aliens the VOY crew was going to interact with in the Delta Quadrant. Not to mention, I always felt Q said that to just shut Picard up. He knew in the end Picard would choose to keep the timeline intact. Not to mention, Q would have been wrong. If Picard amounted to nothing and never became Captain then he never would have stopped the Borg at Earth. History would be assimilated. Picard not being Captain would cause the federation to implode...

But when Picard went to the altered future, the Enterprise was still there. Someone else rose to the challenge. It's possible that without Picard's arrogant attitude, Q wouldn't have retaliated by throwing them into the path of a Borg cube in season two and Wolf 359 never occurs. If it did, obviously someone else rose to the challenge.

A mathematical equation was used to destroy the Borg in TNG? What...?

It was one of the options they were considering with Hugh, before deciding against it and sending him back to his people. They were going to show him an image of an object that couldn't exist in 3 dimensional space. Of course, his individuality ended up being the real virus that needed to be amputated from the collective.

From the perspective of the time-patrolling Federation, anythign done in the past already happened to lead up to their future. So unless someone from THEIR timeline went back to mess things up, why would they go back in time to stop Janeway?

But as I pointed out above, her changes would affect more than localized events.

In Relativity, Janeway was warned that she showed up on their sensors far too often, and to avoid time travel in the future. Anything she would have done would be in their past, but they still saw fit to go back and clean up her messes. They should have sensed future Janeway's incursion and prevented it.

Agreed 100%. I too felt that the last season should have taken place in the Alpha Quadrant.

DS9 was wrapped up too, so they wouldn't have been stepping on DS9's toes by telling the Alpha Quadrant story in season 7. From canon, we know very little of the events in the alpha quadrant immediately after the end of DS9's run, other than what was communicated to Voyager, and from Nemesis and Spock prime in ST09. We already had seen enough one-off stories from the Delta Quadrant, another season of disconnected one-offs wasn't required. This was a missed opportunity IMO. Perhaps they find a way to use the transwarp hubs in the Unimatrix two parter.

But the entire show wasn't about the Dominion War. So ending it on that note would fall flat (IMHO). DS9 wrapped up story lines instead of just letting them sit there and flounder like VOY did.

They could have wrapped it up in a previous episode, and give more screen time to the Battle of Cardassia and the peace treaty negotiations. By that point, the war's outcome was probably pretty clear to anyone on DS9. I'm sure they could have just not done one of the Vic Fontaine episodes or 'Take me out to the Holosuite' and did a wrap-up episode in the 2nd to last episode, and left the finale for the action.

Well...some people care cause some people liked the show. I did.

Not enough to keep the show alive. By bringing Troi and Riker in to view the events, it was like saying 'yes, this did occur, it is indeed canon.'

One or two episodes of set up is still pretty weak. The EMH and Seven had several seasons. Chuckles and Seven had like two episodes. And it still came out of no where. Because I believe she fantasized about him on the holodeck. Where did that come from? Torres had more of a legit attraction to Chakotay than Seven.

The Doctor was infatuated with her, but she didn't see him as more than a friend. There was a bit of a doctor-patient issue there too, and the fact that he acted like a teacher to her, I think it would have been a bit awkward. 'Human Error' was the episode I was thinking of re. Seven and Chakotay. Their relationship wasn't really going to start until after the events of Endgame, and if they hadn't occurred.

I don't consider season 4 to be the beginning. The Caretaker may have been weak, but they were still the beginning. They were the reason they were in the Delta quadrant. Not the Borg. The Borg were just...there. Not to mention, the Female Caretaker said she would one day get revenge, but she never did...

We knew from TNG that the Borg were coming from somewhere else distant, and we knew from DS9 it wasn't the Gamma Quadrant. That narrowed it down to either the Beta or Delta quadrants, unless they were crossing the massive inter-galactic void. Getting pulled back to the caretaker means going back to deal with the Kazon and Ocampa, neither of which really worked for the show in the first place. The Borg were far more compelling villains than the Kazon.

I'd have to check the stardates but I'm pretty sure those episodes were like a month or two apart. She couldn't sit tight on the ship for a month (giving them more time to put the future tech together)?

Yeah, I agree. It is odd Seven never said anything about it.

The likely 'in-universe' reason? Probably that the longer she was there, the more likely she was to be discovered by the Borg, or that her tech gets stolen by someone else. The 'out-of-universe' reason? I really believe the writers winged it and didn't come up with the ending until the final moment, which is why it all felt rushed. There wasn't much reason they couldn't have dropped the one-off episodes in season 7 and showed progress. That, or come home at the end of season 6 and go back out in season 7 using a wormhole or abandoned trans-warp hubs. They could have easily written a Borg Civil War into Unimatrix Zero, which would have led to Voyager getting permission to use the hubs from the rebel faction. That would have been far less awkward than this 'Timey Whimey' ending.

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But when Picard went to the altered future, the Enterprise was still there. Someone else rose to the challenge. It's possible that without Picard's arrogant attitude, Q wouldn't have retaliated by throwing them into the path of a Borg cube in season two and Wolf 359 never occurs. If it did, obviously someone else rose to the challenge.

That's true too. You're right. But I honestly think that episode was the cosmic equivalent to a inside a holodeck but don't know it episode. I know Q knew Picard was going to make the right choice, but he had to make Picard realize the kind of man he was (even with his checkered past). My point on time travel in Trek is that it is hard to believe Janeway could alter the timeline like that (skip two decades more in the Delta Quadrant) and not assume that would have major repercussions.

It was one of the options they were considering with Hugh, before deciding against it and sending him back to his people. They were going to show him an image of an object that couldn't exist in 3 dimensional space. Of course, his individuality ended up being the real virus that needed to be amputated from the collective.

I don't think I remember this episode. If that is the case, then that is equally dumb to a virus bringing down the Borg Collective.

In Relativity, Janeway was warned that she showed up on their sensors far too often, and to avoid time travel in the future. Anything she would have done would be in their past, but they still saw fit to go back and clean up her messes. They should have sensed future Janeway's incursion and prevented it.

Which again, never made sense. I actually rewatched this episode so it's fresh in my mind. From their perspective, anything done in the past should be their history. They couldn't be seeing it as "incursions". Unless, it's a crime from THEIR time. Like Braxton from their time or the future messing with the past. If Janeway alters time centuries before they existed, to them she had always done that. Unless their POV on time is radically different.

DS9 was wrapped up too, so they wouldn't have been stepping on DS9's toes by telling the Alpha Quadrant story in season 7. From canon, we know very little of the events in the alpha quadrant immediately after the end of DS9's run, other than what was communicated to Voyager, and from Nemesis and Spock prime in ST09. We already had seen enough one-off stories from the Delta Quadrant, another season of disconnected one-offs wasn't required. This was a missed opportunity IMO. Perhaps they find a way to use the transwarp hubs in the Unimatrix two parter.

Exactly! I would have loved to have seen the fall out from the Dominion War. I would have loved to have seen them return to a Federation that had nearly stood on the brink of annihilation and was transformed as a result of it. I personally wanted them to return, realize their Federation was gone, and for them to fly off into the unknown (it's about the journey, not the destination). But no...they returned to flowers and champagne. Typical.

They could have wrapped it up in a previous episode, and give more screen time to the Battle of Cardassia and the peace treaty negotiations. By that point, the war's outcome was probably pretty clear to anyone on DS9. I'm sure they could have just not done one of the Vic Fontaine episodes or 'Take me out to the Holosuite' and did a wrap-up episode in the 2nd to last episode, and left the finale for the action.

I'm confused here. What more did you want to see? You felt the battle was too fast?

Not enough to keep the show alive. By bringing Troi and Riker in to view the events, it was like saying 'yes, this did occur, it is indeed canon.'

Maybe, but I personally didn't need that. To me the show was already canon and I didn't need an old Troi and Riker to prove that.

The Doctor was infatuated with her, but she didn't see him as more than a friend. There was a bit of a doctor-patient issue there too, and the fact that he acted like a teacher to her, I think it would have been a bit awkward. 'Human Error' was the episode I was thinking of re. Seven and Chakotay. Their relationship wasn't really going to start until after the events of Endgame, and if they hadn't occurred.

I felt she had more chemistry with the EMH, but you're right that it may have just been one sided.

We knew from TNG that the Borg were coming from somewhere else distant, and we knew from DS9 it wasn't the Gamma Quadrant. That narrowed it down to either the Beta or Delta quadrants, unless they were crossing the massive inter-galactic void. Getting pulled back to the caretaker means going back to deal with the Kazon and Ocampa, neither of which really worked for the show in the first place. The Borg were far more compelling villains than the Kazon.

I think you misunderstand what I meant. I don't want them to go back to the start of their journey. What I meant by going full circle was dealing with the Caretaker. The Female Caretaker may have found them again and this time they had to stop her. It began with a Caretaker and ends with a Caretaker. I'm not saying it's a plot hole that the Borg are in VOY/Delta Quadrant. Just that they were overused by this point. Or at the very least, the Caretaker AND the Borg.

The likely 'in-universe' reason? Probably that the longer she was there, the more likely she was to be discovered by the Borg, or that her tech gets stolen by someone else. The 'out-of-universe' reason? I really believe the writers winged it and didn't come up with the ending until the final moment, which is why it all felt rushed. There wasn't much reason they couldn't have dropped the one-off episodes in season 7 and showed progress. That, or come home at the end of season 6 and go back out in season 7 using a wormhole or abandoned trans-warp hubs. They could have easily written a Borg Civil War into Unimatrix Zero, which would have led to Voyager getting permission to use the hubs from the rebel faction. That would have been far less awkward than this 'Timey Whimey' ending.

I agree with you here a 100%. Especially the part about the writers winging it.

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Just watched this one last night, 9/10. I am a huge J/C fan so the whole C/7 thing just makes me cringe. I liked the ending, especially hearing Miral cry over the com, that was nice. Older Janeway was bitter but she did what she had to do to get them home. I always wondered why she didn't come back like a few weeks earlier so Carey could have made it home.

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