The Founder

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About The Founder

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    The Celestial Temple
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  • Favorite Trek Movie
    The Undiscovered Country
  • Favorite Trek Captain
    Benjamin Sisko
  • Favorite Trek Series
    Deep Space Nine
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  1. That's an excellent point. I can already see it now - an entire diplomatic division that scours over the cultural norms of alien races to see if it can line up with "Federation values" for the most part. It is statistically impossible for them to line up a 100%. But maybe there is a line that can never be crossed. So certain cultural norms can be accepted, even if humans find it unpalatable for themselves. But the rest of the norms line up with Earth? I think the controversy with Section 31 is not that they don't line up with the values of aliens in the Federation. You all may very well be right that there are alien races in the Federation that has an organization like them. In fact - I wouldn't be surprised S31 works with those said organizations. The controversy I think stems from the fact that S31 is an Earth organization. So humans are probably disgusted that this "archaic" mindset of clandestine groups engaging in "evil" is an affront. To them, it belongs in a by gone era. Look at Bashir's disgust when Sloan explains what they are and the hypocrisy of violating Federation principles to defend said principles. It is hypocrisy. But Bashir does not address the elephant in the room - what do they do with aliens that don't share their values? I'm sure Bashir would argue to just leave them alone. It's a big galaxy after all. But what about the aliens like the Dominion or Borg? The ones that have an express desire to conquer Earth and the whole of the Federation? And what about local aliens that could start wars? For all we know S31 secretly handles these threats to prevent them from spiraling into massive wars. There is a movie based on the creation of the CIA by Robert De Niro "The Good Shepherd". There is an exchange between a CIA agent and an aging mobster. Aging Mobster: You're the guys that scare me. You're the people that make big wars. CIA agent: No, we make sure the wars are small ones. Is it possible that S31 does this for the Federation?
  2. Good point and you are likely right about that. It probably requires strong focus to use the Force and when you are on a battlefield - you're more likely to be focusing on staying alive. And yes - I think considering the "magical" aspect of Jedi (not just in power but in terms of how they are depicted) - it would not be outside the realm of possibility that through the Force there are a lot more "powers" to be used.
  3. If the Star Wars' movies implied using the Force was exhausting - then I would understand why they weren't Force throwing each other around during a lightsaber duel or a war scene. Because they need all their stamina for the fight. I get it. But it is so inconsistent. At times they will use the Force in battle and other times they won't. To make matters worse - Yoda told Luke that manipulating objects through the Force is not different. The difference is in their minds. So lifting an X-Wing is the same as lifting a pebble. In fact, it's a lot like the Matrix movies where Morpheus is trying to teach Neo that the world is a simulation and they can do so much more if they just let go of their old thinking. I love, love, love Star Wars but they are really bad with being consistent with the Force. How many times do they duel over a chasm and all it would take is a quick Force-push? At least in the video games - if you fight another Force wielder - the Force won't work on them like it does a Stormtrooper ... I honestly hope to see some new Force powers. I for one think it would be cool if you could control fire or ice (for example). Star Wars has always been more sci-fi fantasy than fiction. Jedi are often likened to samurai but I also see them as wizards in a way. But maybe that is too much fantasy? I think it would be cool if Luke, in his studies, uncovered old Force abilities that haven't been seen for a millennia. The prequels implied the Jedi had grown weak because something was clouding the Force. With episode 7 and there being "an awakening" maybe the Jedi can be so much more ....
  4. Right - which makes me wonder if the "channelers" of the Force can do so much more with it than we've seen. I wonder how fans reacted when we go from A New Hope where all Jedi seem to do is a Mind Trick (via Obi-Wan), feel the death of people (Alderaan's destruction), or use it to help them destroy the Death Star. Then we enter Empire Strikes Back where Luke is moving objects with his mind and can see a (possible) future. Darth Vader goes from choking people with his bare hands to using the Force to choke people out. Finally, in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor is shooting out lightening from his hands. I wonder if fans were like "WTF!?!?" Plus, you bring up another thing I always wonder with Star Wars - why don't Jedi use the Force when it is appropriate. Instead of opening doors .... why not use Force speed in battle? Why not simply Force Push Darth Maul down the chasm before he can engage you in a duel? Why didn't Maul simply Force Push Obi-Wan when he was hanging off the ledge? It seems so inconsistent.
  5. So in regards to Force powers .... you feel that it is limitless? So if Kylo Ren started to do this: Would you be ok with that being a new Force power? The reason I ask is because I am wondering what limits there are to the Force - if any. I know one could say "If Jedi/Sith could do that - why didn't they do it in the prequels?" One could argue that considering the long, lost history of the Jedi/Sith - a lot of ancient knowledge had been lost and their true potential never really known.... In regards to that Rey theory - I've heard that before. But according to Daisy Ridley - it is really "obvious". The theory Sehlat heard of doesn't sound "obvious" to me.
  6. I'm not surprised. I hope she at least gets some type of conclusion in Episode 8. Rather than them saying she's off somewhere else in Episode 9. This new trilogy might be about Rey/Finn/Poe but Leia and Luke are now a part of it. They can't just fade away. ________________________________________________________________________________________ I have a question generally speaking for Star Wars .... What are you all's limits when it comes to the Force? Usually, when we think of the Force - we think of telekinesis, telepathy, Mind Trick, visions of a possible future, and lightening. The prequels gave us Force Jump/Run (and apparently Jedi can fall 100000 feet and survive ....). The sequel trilogy showed Kylo Ren being able to hold blaster fire in the air. Rey was able to do some type of tactile memory with the lightsaber? We may see more in the later movies. Suffice it to say - in the video games and the books - the Jedi and Sith are gods and have a much wider range of powers. What would you all say is going too far with their powers? Darth Vader implied that even the Death Star was pathetic next to the powers of the Force. Yoda implied that the Force was this infinite cosmic energy and that all life is connected to it. Do you think that there is a far larger range of powers the Jedi can tape into? Maybe knowledge lost over time or due to the Empire's purge. It's not like Yoda or Obi-Wan had time to teach Luke the full range of powers. Would you accept further manipulation of universal elements? Not just lightening but water or wind or fire or ice? Is it possible that a Force user can teleport like Nightcrawler or be impervious to injury like Wolverine? How far could it go before you say that this ruins the Force? Or do you feel that you would accept anything to truly show that the Force is limitless in its power?
  7. Thank you! Glad to see Star Trek still brings this out of us even after all these years. This is a really good point. It's doubtful that the Federation has matching values .... or maybe it does? Eddington implied the Federation was insidious like the Borg and was taking over. Maybe Eddington and that Klingon daughter of Gorkon was right - it's a Homo Sapien's Club and to join the Federation you have to acquiesce to Earth values? Remember the episode where Voyager was trapped in some pocket dimension or something? And they created this loose alliance with alien ships - like a mini Federation. To join - you have to agree to the rules laid out by Janeway. Perhaps the UFP is something akin to that? Excellent points. This reminds me of how Worf tried to kill Kurn in a ritual and Sisko argued that he gives a lot of lee way to alien cultures/traditions but there is a line. You're right when you say that even on Earth - we all don't agree. I guess we're supposed to assume Earth has a mono-culture now with shared values that have little to no deviation. Perhaps that is what Earth looks for in other alien races? One world societies and then those societies have to match the values of Earth. Or ... the alliance of the UFP is much more loose than all of us think? I figure in regards to S31 - Earth might accept that their tactics are ok on alien worlds but not their own.
  8. Good point about how this will forever change the franchise as a whole. The seemingly eternal battle between the Light and the Dark goes back to the origins of Star Wars. Where will it go without it? I'm not that put off by it because I played so many old Star Wars games and read so much old material of Star Wars that often had people walking that middle path. They tend to be the more popular characters too. i.e. Kyle Katarn? I feel like the Light and Dark will still be part of the franchise, but our understanding of it will go in a completely different route. Exactly right. Rian seems to think it is only Luke who is the last jedi. But again - one has to ask ... why is he the last one? Do they mean because of what Kylo Ren did or because Luke will not resurrect the Jedi Order? If not - what is Rey the first of? Luke is the Last Jedi
  9. I've been hearing rumors that Luke went more "grey" than light side. In the lore of Star Wars, the original Force users balanced both sides. I personally don't want too much Prequel stuff in these movies if I can be blunt. However, the PT never really delved into what "balance of the Force" truly meant. We have fans that think it literally means two Jedi and two Sith. Which makes no sense to me. Why would the Force care how many practitioners are around? Others think it means eradicating the Dark Side as it is a "perversion" of the natural Force. If that is the case, then Lucas using the word "balance" was a poor choice. Balance implies an equilibrium between two or more sides. It might be interesting to think the Jedi and the Sith were always wrong. And Force users were never meant to split the two but rather wield them both harmoniously. What if Luke learned that lesson in his solitude?
  10. Really good points. Odo said almost the same thing about the Federation, in the open abhors Section 31's tactics, but when they need dirty work done they look the other way. A "tidy arrangement" they have. The thing about the contradiction/hypocrisy is an interesting point. I honestly wonder if it helps that most of Starfleet/UFP doesn't even know S31 exists. So that probably helps a lot too. An out of sight, out of mind type of thinking process. It's a lot easier to accept the Federation can survive on pacifism and kindness without shady dealings. You also make a good point that maybe something not as extreme as S31 is needed but there does need to be some group of "patriots" (as they see themselves) that are willing to do the things regular humans will not. I recently re-watched the episode where the DS9 crew crash landed their captured Jem'Hadar ship on a planet. The injured Vorta, desperate to live, told the DS9 crew the battle plans so they could ambush the Jem'Hadar easily. Kill them all before they knew what hit them. The officers debated it and Garak was like "Let's just kill them and be done with it. This is war." while O'Brien said "There are rules in war." and Garak replied "Human rules." It is interesting to think there are probably humans that think more like Garak than they would Picard for example. An interesting point. I have read that utopia is not something that can ever be reached, but is an idea that should forever be strived for. Maybe the Federation is as close to utopian as it can get, but there can always be improvements. I think 24th Earth is a utopia from our point of view, though. There really isn't any conflict except, as you pointed out, the occasional corrupt admiral. There really are no problems on Earth as we understand it. Which makes me wonder how they can even be equipped to handle conflicts emerging from outer space. It's why Sisko gave that speech about how it is easy to be a "saint in paradise". Wow ... really good observation about our progression and if we will always need a "them" to stand as our counter. I think, considering the bio diversity of the Trekverse, there will always be a "them". Unless the destiny of all races is to one day reach a Q-like status and all races turn into "gods"? Well - the thing I am trying to consider is this - remember pre-DS9 days? When we watched TNG, did any of us really think there was a shadowy clandestine group behind the scenes advancing the cause of the Federation? Or did we all assume that Starfleet/Federation ideals were enough to ensure the progress of said organizations? That it does. S31 absolutely lets Starfleet/Federation off the hook. It makes the hard choices the Federation will not. Which kind of robs the UFP of any agency. You know - that is one thing I am not a fan of with the novels. Ever since S31 came into being - suddenly every bad act done in TNG/TOS was a S31 member. Which, I didn't like because it essentially made everyone "bad" the fault of S31. Can't there be bad people? Maybe, despite the books, we are looking at this the wrong way. There is a way to keep the old idea of Federation ideals being enough to survive and reconciling it with S31. We often think of S31 as a group that is constantly active. Maybe it isn't, though? Maybe it isn't sacking anti-Federation politicians to ensure membership of an alien world? Maybe they aren't constantly developing bio-weapons to infect an enemy? etc. Maybe they are only active on extreme threats and normally are dormant? I'm not sure Starfleet Intelligence would engage in genocide. As others stated, I think we're supposed to assume S:I just did a lot of spying and information gathering. Not actively engaging in sabotage or deposing leaders or creating secret weapons, etc. They were essentially an extremely benign group. Bashir ever asked Sloan if Section 31 was Starfleet Intelligence. Sloan says something about them being a competent department but "limited". S31 gives them free reign to do whatever they want, no matter how morally ambiguous. I wonder who approved Sisko's little plan in "In The Pale Moonlight". S31 or Starfleet Intelligence? Good points here. Especially about media beyond Star Trek showing the darker side of heroes. You're right about Roddenberry likely to not respond well to this idea. Again, he probably wanted us to assume that intelligence groups no longer act with that kind of deviousness but rather solely for the benefit of the whole. I completely agree. DS9 beautifully stated this very thing. When Quark says that humans are wonderful as long as we're well taken care of. But when we are part in a dangerous position or are threatened over a long period of time, our old cave man selves comes right out. No matter how much you've grown up in a perfect heaven-like world. Very interesting about it being the "price" one pays to have their perfect world. Sounds like a Rule of Acquisition lol. That everything has its price ....
  11. So they're going for an 80s vibe with that trailer...?
  12. Disclaimer: I would please prefer this not turn into a Kobayahi Maru topic. This topic isn't about the CIA or KGB or modern events. Strictly the idea of an agency like that in a utopia. Disclaimer part 2: This topic is more about Section 31 from the show. The one in Abramsverse is different. They are open about their existence and create wars. Versus the one in the shows that said they dealt with threats quietly. So - with the upcoming t.v. show Discovery around the corner - I've dusted off the old DS9 Netflix and started watching again from season 1. I ended up watching some clips on Youtube and I have a habit of reading the comment section of any video I am on. But the conversation going on about Section 31 is interesting. For example - the disease infecting the Great Link. I saw overwhelming support for the tactic considering the Founders "started" the war. Then I saw comments about how Earth and the Federation are unlikely to have ever made it to the 24th century with a group like Section 31 ... The argument was essentially that a peace-at-all-costs society that was tolerant of intolerance was doomed to death as intolerance always streamrolls over those type of societies. Do you agree that a utopian society can survive without S31? (Essentially, before DS9 aired, that seemed to be the idea) Or Do you believe a society like that must have an agency that does the dirty work and have a "tidy arrangement" with them? (DS9 and beyond)
  13. That's exactly why it sounds so appealing to me. :D Original cast. New episodes (for me at least) and some cool new alien designs.
  14. For all the people that said the Dominion ... I too vote Dominion. The show frequently narrowly had them win but ... bad guys can't win in Trek. The Voth seem like they could destroy the UFP. Q (the continuum or an individual). Organians maybe (or any non-corporeal alien race). In TNG - Q implied that there were a lot of odd strange alien races that the Federation was not ready for. Sadly, we never saw any such thing in VOY. :/ But I imagine there are tons of alien races that could destroy the UFP. That wouldn't have worked. Sisko had to beg the Prophets to interfere that one time and they "punished" him for it. They weren't going to be involved any further. The Federation didn't blockade the Dominion ships coming through because at the time they weren't attacking them. If they randomly started blowing up their ships - I'm sure that would make the UFP the aggressor. It wasn't until tons of convoys had already gotten through that Sisko forced their hands. The Female Founder was imprisoned by the Federation. She couldn't "kick Odo out" because she wasn't part of the Great Link anymore. That is why Odo went to cure his race instead of her. Considering that this was the first conflict the Dominion lost in a long time - I doubt they'd want to go back to business as usual. They nearly all died. And for what? To conquer the Federation? A group that doesn't want to harm them anyways. The Dominion absolutely could have wiped out the Federation and nearly did several times but there were constant "luck" factors. The Founders would have gotten away with putting Martok as Chancellor if Odo hadn't happened to have been there to notice something was off with him. The Founders would have kept the Romulans out of the war if it hadn't been for Sisko/Garak lying. The Founders would have consumed the Alpha Quadrant if the Prophets had not stepped in. The Founders would have won a war of attrition if Section 31 hadn't infected them, thus culminating to Bashir's cure and Odo's offer. Every time - there were minor factors from the DS9 crew that let them tip the scales of war by an inch... As for the Founders and shape-shifting: Intelligence gathering. I'm sure the Founders did not just appear out of no where and take over Admirals, Chancellors, doctors, etc. I'm sure they stake them out and observe them. Enough to pose as them. If someone acts odd, they could play it off that they are not feeling well or some excuse. No one would immediately think ".....are you REALLY my friend?" The Bashir Founder was so convincing that he even performed surgery on Sisko in the episode "Rapture". (this is mostly due to the fact that they had yet decided to have Bashir be abducted in his old uniform). Bashir and O'Brien even talk about it when Bashir returns: Four weeks? Are you telling me I've been hanging around with a Changeling for over a month?" "And you even never suspected it wasn't me?" "No! And the worst part is, the clues were right in front of me!" "What clues?" "Well, for one thing, he was a lot easier to get along with." The average person would dismiss any irregularities unless it is major out of character. Plus, they do make minor mistakes for people who are observant. Like Odo did with the Martok Founder.... I'm sure given time - anyone who discovers something is weird - by that point the Founder does whatever job they need to and moves on anyways.
  15. I have yet to see the animated series but I am tempted to. This sounds pretty interesting! I do wonder what type of aliens/factions existed before the UFP.