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  2. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    My blog entry on the last two episodes: https://musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/2017/10/16/star-trek-discovery-episodes-1-4-the-butchers-knife-cares-not-for-the-lambs-cry-and-1-5-choose-your-pain/ And I second Mr. Picard; TNG (or any other incarnation of ST) is as ‘real’ as any other (yes, even my beloved, goofy TAS ). DSC is more gritty perhaps, but it’s no more or less ‘real’ than any other incarnation of ST.
  3. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    I think, to a large degree and personal tastes aside, TNG worked because of the enormous chemistry that existed among the acting ensemble, not because those characters were particularly well delineated. I like Riker because Riker was played by Jonathan Frakes, not because Riker was a deeply engaging character. Even Picard, in essence, can be reduced to a few behavioral details and speeches - it's Patrick Stewart who breathed life into all those moments, gave the character a deeper emotional texture; it's not because Picard was a character written to be rich in foibles and depth of history. All those TNG characters have charisma and are memorable because of the people who played them. They're successful in spite of Roddenberry's rules, not because of them. I'd agree with Prome also that TNG had a kind of "soft bigotry" at its center, a sort of aloof quality in the insistence that humankind was now above petty emotions. Saying that was an honorable idea; showing it and expecting it to work as drama resulted in a curious blandness. How the hell did we evolve to get to that point? Discovery is brave enough to explore that (although I'd be entirely happy if it had gone forward in time and had ditched the idea of a highly-evolved humanity entirely. If we "need our pain" to make us who we are, reinstate the baser emotions so we can have good drama.) DS9 was an attempt to go deeper, which mostly worked, but you could still tell that the writers were chomping at the bit - they could only go so far. I'd really like to know what Ira Behr and Ron Moore think of Discovery. I bet they're thinking, "Damn, if only we'd had that freedom." If Discovery is a success, and I bet it will be, and more Trek shows are commissioned, I'd love to see "season 8" of DS9. That is, what happened 20 years on, with any of the original new characters and a bunch of new ones given the same treatment and psychological depth the ones on Discovery are given.
  4. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    Don't forget Guinan and Pulaski who are some of the strongest female characters of the franchise. I just wish they'd shown up more. Of the main cast, only Picard is ever interesting (TNG: Family is a masterpiece and shows how flawed Jean-Luc really is*). *don't worry, Mr.Picard, calling him flawed, in my case, is a term of endearment.
  5. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    I think the exact same thing about DS9’s (and VOY’s) characters. It’s all in the eye of the beholder. I do agree that B. Crusher is a complete and utter character train wreck though... but that goes without saying I guess. I always have Pulaski to cheer for though so there’s that, heh.
  6. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    Honestly, with the exception of Picard and to a lesser extent Data, I found them all to be pretty one-note. Data was also one note, but his exploration of humanity had nuance so the note had some depth. I detest Worf on many levels, and Dr. Crusher just as much. Riker's all right, Troi is boring and Geordi's lack of personality and emotion probably has something to do with this streak of romantic failures. Most of them have never particularly moved me.
  7. What was the last non-Trek tv show you watched?

    I haven’t seen that many 80s horror movies, I guess that’s why the show’s supposed charm is so lost on me. But I did take your advice and watched another episode and I guess the show is okay after all. Still not exactly my thing though, and there are still too many kids and teenagers, lol.
  8. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    I disagree as to the whole “more real” thing. TNG is as real to me as is DSC - and I’m from the absolute and total TNG corner of the fandom, there is no other series I love the way I love TNG. I do realize that some of its characters aren’t fleshed out in the way some fans would like for them to be - but it’s incredibly difficult to flesh out characters on a show that’s supposed to be episodic and that operates under the assumption that “at the end of each episode everything has to be the way it was when the episode began”. It limits what you can do as a writer, but it also changes your task - it makes you operate under the premise of “what’s gonna happen this week that shows us how the characters operate to get things back to the way they were”. The thing here is to go backwards - look at how the characters respond to what’s happening WITHIN that timeframe instead of throughout the series (with the few exceptions where the show DID have arcs, of course). THAT tells you all about them. I don’t see how this makes characters “bland”. It just requires reading between the lines instead of getting things served on a plate like DS9 often did and DSC is doing now, where you get all the arcs and fleshed out moments that TNG did not (and could not) have due to its episodic nature. I for one still prefer to fill the gaps myself. Also, I look at most of the TNG characters and think “these are folks I’d like to hang out with”. I honestly can’t say the same about any of the other crews - and as much I adore Lorca I wouldn’t want to live on his ship and his crew would make me incredibly uncomfortable, especially Tilly with her weird enthusiasm for everything and her being so nosy and whatnot. (I do like Saru tho, he’s the only one I’d really like to be friends with.) People these days make me uncomfortable to hang around, maybe this is why I like most of the TNG folks so much - they come with an invisible sign above their head that says “safe, won’t backstab you unless malfunctioning/possessed by alien”. I simply prefer harmony, not conflict - I come from a background where conflict happened every evening, and it was NOT pleasant, and I would simply like to live in a place where folks are comforting, not upsetting or devious or “with his person you never now what you get”. I therefore don’t see TNG’s approach as a weakness, I see it as a strength. It makes you dig deeper into the characters in your own time, it doesn’t tell you all you need to know in a detailed long arc - it gives you glimpses and it’s up to you to fill the gaps - but only if you want to. If not, you can also just sit back and watch a few episodes here and there and then switch it all off and watch something else. That’s how the show was designed, and back then it had to be designed like that. It WAS made 30 years ago, and I just think it’s somewhat unfair to compare it to a show like DSC that is neither made for an 80s/early 90s television audience nor has to operate under the strict “Roddenberry/Berman rules”. What I do agree with is that they should have tuned down the “we’re better than you late 20th century folks” tone on TNG though. It WAS somewhat clumsy sometimes, and it did come without enough nuances. They meant well - to me it’s comforting to see a world where most things are peaceful and I’ve always disliked DS9 for its preachy undertone of “its not as nice as you think it is, let us tell you how TNG’s utopia was flawed” - how about no, I like my TNG world the way it is, thanks - but sometimes TNG overdid the whole “we’re better humans now” thing, especially in the first season, but then, taking TNG’s first season overly seriously is usually a big mistake anyway. Still. With all I’ve said now, I should dislike DSC, just as I dislike DS9, because DSC takes things to levels that not even DS9 did. I should be up in arms, demanding for things to be like they were on TNG, wanting peaceful times, etc. But... I’m not doing any of those things , and surprisingly so. I like DSC a lot. BECAUSE it’s different indeed, and BECAUSE it brings in fresh air that the franchise needed indeed. It was a mistake for VOY to go back to TNG’s formula, absolutely. I agree. It was also a mistake to try and force ENT into the same old pattern as well (they had their moments here tho). DSC had to be different, or we would have had another ENT, and I’m as puzzled as others are as to how people can actually still demand for TNG 2.0 to be made. What I’m trying to say is, I guess, that there can be room for both - for TNG love and for DSC love. I love TNG and I dig DSC... just BECAUSE the shows are so vastly different in their approach and yet both belong to the same franchise. I find this extremely fascinating. (Pun fully intended.) In fact, I’m working on a Picard/Lorca fic right now - of course I am - and it’s incredibly thrilling to put these two against each other (both mentally and physically, hurr hurr).
  9. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    It's been 50 years of, in many way, the same show. DS9 stretched the format with some serialization and genuine character growth, but it was still the same format with the same kinds of characters for 5 decades. Some people simply can't handle something not that format and starring not all those same basic archetypes.
  10. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    Very beautifully put. Also, it sort of brings to light the cult mentality that Gene Roddenberry evokes in some people. I was trying to pin down Saru today. He's got a hint of Odo, a hint of Phlox, and you could probably draw more connections. But in the end I realized that Saru is in a completely different league, dimensionally-speaking. I love Odo, and think the tragedy of his life reads like a great opera. But Saru feels like me or my friends. As you say, DSC's characters are real, and that's a beautiful thing I wish more fans were embracing.
  11. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    I think it's all wonderfully said, particularly regarding TNG. I LIKE it. I still watch episodes. I have nostalgia for it. As it aired, my viewing was incomplete until I saw the next week's preview. I never loved it and I still don't. There's a blandness to it, and, even as you point out, a sort of soft bigotry inherent in it, especially for things too different from the Federation. That bigotry that was loud and proud in "The Neutral Zone" never really left it, and the characters are bland in a lot of ways. The people of DSC are real and that makes their values and virtues real.
  12. What was the last non-Trek tv show you watched?

    It’s an homage of an ‘80s horror movie; think of it as the long lost offspring of Steven Spielberg and Stephen King. But yeah, if you don’t like it? You don’t like it.
  13. Discovery, 1.5, “Choose Your Pain.”
  14. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    They didn’t live long enough.
  15. Yesterday
  16. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    So much to say about this ep I dont think it can be done in a week's time. Plus Im moving so I dont know I will get to read all the comments but I will try. Let me just say I have such a full throated defense of the characters on this show that I had to put it in a 2,000 word blog post. The headline is that I think some fans are confusing psychologically complex characters for "darkness." Check it out if you have a few minutes: http://www.justinscottsnead.com/roddenberrys-curse-starfleet-nice-is-not-canon/
  17. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    Oh, absolutely! Matt Decker was preferable in every way! And I certainly can't blame a captain for losing it when he has to watch his entire crew die. But if you think about what KIRK went through in Season 1 alone, the man is inhumanly resilient. From killing Gary Mitchell to being divided into "good" and "evil" halves by the transporter to having his mind emptied by Adams' neural neutralizer to confronting his past when trying to catch Kodos to having his own first officer commit mutiny to going back in time hundreds of years to being court martialled to nearly being decompressed to death to watching his brother and sister-in-law die to having to let Edith Keeler die ... Kirk has been through WAY more than Decker, just in a single season. Given that admirals have to make hard choices and are responsible for the fate of hundreds of planets, a man who cracks under pressure -- no matter how understandable that is -- is probably not the best possible choice. But then, there aren't very many people like Jim Kirk.
  18. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    If I had to pick, it'd be Decker. he just had a straight up PTSD breakdown and really, did what he did all he did to try to save lives and maybe redeem himself. Tracey was pretty corrupt to begin with. Sure, he lost his crew, too, but someone dangles the idea of the fountain of youth in front of him and he'll drain four phasers killing Yangs to get it and would have happily committed straight-up genocide.
  19. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    I guess we're lucky Ron Tracey and Matt Decker didn't end up as admirals...
  20. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    LOL. We're safer voting for that Sith religious nut for Senate.
  21. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    I'm looking forward to Lorca getting promoted after this war ends!
  22. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    Seems like the Admiralty is essentially a speed-run to corruption.
  23. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    That would totally work! Pissed me off that she advances her own theories about future plot developments of the show (with convincing evidence) and cares not a jot for whether they might spoil a reader's enjoyment. I mean, I have my own theories, we all do, but Trendacosta is paid to stitch all this stuff together and put it on the Internet, and she could do so with a little more care and consideration. Exactly. And it's not like we haven't had dodgy captains and admirals before. That was an ongoing problem for Starfleet, let's face it...
  24. Page 60 is online at Star Trek Comic Memories. Link Raul
  25. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    This could all be; however, I still got more than a little satisfaction that someone finally left Mudd to the wolves. If nothing else, it’s future karmic payback. As for Tyler? If he were a surgically altered Klingon spy, that would tie in nicely with Arne Darvin later on (maybe they had the same surgeon? Hehe) but maybe they won’t place too much importance on the tribble’s reaction to Tyler (if it has one) because there aren’t other Klingons aboard for comparison. He might take it the same way one might take a cat hissing at a new visitor, “Oh look, the cat hates you...interesting.” He would probably make the Klingon/tribble connection only if there were other (known) Klingons aboard that were exposed to Lorca’s tribble. Guess that’s a roundabout way of saying it won’t hurt continuity. As the late Leonard Nimoy might croon, “Bitter dregs.”
  26. Episode 1.5 "Choose Your Pain" Discussion Thread

    Best Star Trek since ENT: Dead Stop. Maybe even since Voyager. It was "so ******* cool!" to quote my favourite character on the show so far. It was so Star Trek, it hurt. Discovery has struck a balance between serialization and episodic format. The klingon arc is rich enough to give us individual stories like this, and if they remain at the quality of the last three episodes, we're in for a hell of a season. I do with there were more women in the main cast, but that's a small gripe and I'm very happy that there's LGB representation (T representation will have to wait, I suppose.) I love the whole darn cast. Burnham is a perfect protagonist, feeling the things we do and being just enough of an outsider to let us know we're not the only ones questioning starfleet's practices in this era. There was a callback to TWOK I think, when Saru congratulated Stamets and heard no response, echoing Kirk looking over and seeing that Spock wasn't there. We see that Saru is clearly not ready for his own command, and is closer to Lorca than he thinks. I'm kind of blown away. I had high expectations for this show, and they are all being surpassed.
  27. Gazomg's Art Fakes & Wallpapers

    New Orville Logos added.-- Updates for the month so far The Orville Patch 4 -- Non Trek The Orville Patch 3 -- Non Trek The Orville Patch 2 -- Non Trek The Orville Patch 1 -- Non Trek The Doctor -DS9 --- Random Trek #2 Leeta - Bajoran Militia --- Random Trek #2 Christopher Pike - Discovery --- Random Trek #2 Deanna Troi - Borg --- Random Trek #2 Picard Janeway 2 --- Random Trek #1 Deltas Wallpaper --- Logo's #1 Star Wars Trek Logo --- Non Trek Academy Logo's --- Logo's #1 Starfleet Discovery Flag --- Random Trek #3 USS Discovery --- Wallpapers USS Discovery Patch --- Logo's #2 Daniel Craig --- Celebrity Trek #1 USS Discovery Starfleet --- Logo's #2 UFP Starfleet HQ --- Logo's #2 Space Agency Logo's Roscosmos --- Logo's #2 CSA ASC --- Logo's #2 UK Space Agency --- Logo's #2 CSNA --- Logo's #2 ISRO--- Logo's #2 European Space Agency --- Logo's #2 NASA --- Logo's #2
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